Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Had a brain wave while scribbling in the "Carebearing 2.0" devblog thread... back in the days of yore, there was a System Scanning POS module. I never really did get the hang of using them, but the memory stuck, and it's given me an idea for a new anit-cloaking POS module. This would be a sov-requiring module, just like a CSAA, but unlike the CSAA, must be anchored OUTSIDE the force field, just like weapons/ECM/travel, and therefore can also be disabled just like wep/ECM/travael. Limit of one module per system (like a jump bridge/cyno array), and maybe requiring an iHub upgrade. Using the module would require someone with the POS gunning role to fly to the control tower, link up with it, and fire the anti-cloak pulse. That pulse will then disrupt *ALL* cloaks in the system (friend and foe alike) for some period (5m maybe... not too long, just long enough for a semi-experienced prober). The module itself will have double the disruption time as its ROF (5m decloak pulse = 10m recharge).

Anticipated effects:
- Active spies will be forced to bounce around planets/moons/safes roughly every 30s or so to keep from getting probed out until the disruption effect wears off. Being active, though, they were probably moving between anoms/belts gathering intel or looking for targets of opportunity already.
- AFK's will meet with fiery death.
- Friendly ships will be forced to meet up at a common point and their sigs quickly placed on ignore, lest they clutter up the probe team's search with noise, resulting in a temporary disruption of friendly activity (Hey, finding these people shouldn't be too easy!)
- The double-time recharge cost should prevent constant spamming/abuse of the module. If the infiltrator is already active enough to evade probing for _m, that's good enough to prove they're not AFK.
- Satisfies CCP Sreegs' desire to twist the knife when it comes to botting (for a day or two, anyway), since automating the same warp-to pattern while uncloaked would represent a big "Look at me!!" flag.

Well, come on, don't just bash it, come up with an idea that protects active players and punishes deadbeats.

I have, and I've posted in them from time to time, but the problem I've found with almost all of them (apart from trolls) is that they've generally been weighted too far in favor of the defender. I've seen (for example) the 'cloak fuel' idea, and the 'cloak detector probes', and a bunch of others. Cloakers *should* be able to disrupt things, but they need to be playing an active part in making that happen, not just leaving the client running while they run the kids to soccer practice or somesuch. If they're active, they should be able to make life miserable, opening covert cynos, dropping bombs, reporting on the CSAA being anchored, etc. If they're not active, the defender should have some kind of tool to get rid of them, but having/using that tool must come with a price tag attached.

What I think is really what is going to drive this, and maybe even make megalliances start paying attention... is with the drone poo + meta 0 nerfs inbound, they're going to have to either start mining for themselves, or import staggering amounts of stuff from empire. Once they get fed up with it, they're going to go whining back to CCP about how broken AFK cloaking is, and I'm worried the pendulum will swing (as it often does) too far in the other direction.

It is the end result of my idea, yes, but the real goal is to make sure you're actually doing something. Thinking about your comment, of course, has now presented a hole in my original idea, that being "what if someone's stepped out to drop a deuce?" To which an answer of broadcasting in local "Anti-Cloak pulse detected! Systems will be unable to compensate in _m_s!" countdown presents itself. I want players who take an active part in disrupting the activities of the local residents to be able to protect themselves, but end the ability for people to do so risk-free


This is where I think most people come to loggerheads. Local was never intended to be an intel tool, but (like jetcan mining) it became one through emergence. I view the problem as being more like anti-submarine warfare. Let's say we've been at war for, ohh... 116 years (only because that's how long the Hundred Years War actually lasted, and I needed a big number). Because we've been at war for so long, all traditional wireline communications are gone, and wireless is the only option. Let's also assume our spies have somehow made copies of each others' one-time pads, so we don't even bother with encryption anymore. I *know* you have a sub in the area, but being a sub, it will stay hidden if I do nothing. However, I have a tool (SONAR) in my destroyer with which I can attempt to find it. BUT, if I use that tool, you'll be able to hear me coming long before I'm actually able to detect you. Thus, if you're paying attention, you can evade me. If you do nothing, you're toast


Removing cloakies from local, IIRC, was an exploit that someone paid dearly for. If you must have an in-game reason for it, use this: When our Earthling ancestors designed and built the gates, one of the rules was that a jump gate at the point of origin must inform the destination gate that it is sending a ship through of x mass with p pilot. If it doesn't arrive, send condolences to the next of kin. The destination gate then accepts the pilot and links them into the communication network. This code lives so deep within the programming, and is so arcane and cryptic that even the Jove can't figure it out, that simply accessing it could disrupt the quantum computations necessary for it to work. It also provides the rationale for "no local in wormholes." No gates = no local


The problem is that as it currently stands, things are unbalanced in favor of the aggressor. There are no means with which the defender can seek out and remove the intruder. Thus, the aggressor can do damage to the defender's economy, while putting themselves at zero risk apart from the initial infiltration (except if you use a cov-op nullified T3, but that's a different story).

Not bad, though by this, entering a k-space system via a wormhole would not put you in local.

Yeah, plinked this at the top of my reply to Nikk while you were typing. Gotta love our ancestors :)

Almost left this out:
How to pop that cloak.

Recall the T2 Counter CovOps probes mentioned above? They are what must be used for this.

After scanning down the cloaked vessel, the probes can be right clicked singly, or as a group, to fly into range of the target they just located. (right click menu is on the scan results menu for this)
(Probe warps to scanned grid, then MWD's to within 2k of cloaked vessel and orbits, denying it the ability to maintain cloak)

It might be a problem for the hunter if they send just the probes, as an obviously prepared cloaker will destroy probes if nothing else is there to provide a reason for them to survive.

Like anything being hunted, the hunter must provide the means to stop them from running away over and over.

Gate camps won't find this very useful, as probing down the newly arrived cloaked vessel will allow the vessel in question to leave before it completes.

Much as the idea appeals to me (and yes, I did say I liked it, so go ahead and call me two-faced), I'm not all that keen with actually going ahead and automating the d-scan. My problem with it is two-fold. First, it would be immediately abused by botters just like local already is. Second, taken in small numbers (say, fifteen pilots in a WH) it's no big deal, but when you've got a large 500 vs. 500 fleet engagement with missiles flying, drones+fighters buzzing, ECM/ECCM, and who knows what else going on, even a small percentage of pilots auto-scanning will bring the simulation to a griding halt as the server updates each individual client with new data (tactical TiDi?? Hmm...)

Going with a specialized T2 Anti-cloak probe is an idea I could get behind. It requires the use of a dedicated probing platform (just like existing search methods), uses pre-existing concepts of finding stuff, and any additional coding would be minimal (even less than my POS module idea). I don't like the idea of not showing up in local (that's what W-space is for, and changing local changes the existing paradigm), especially since the cloaker (let's say a bomber fleet) could move with impunity into an attack posture and deliver their payload without any warning at all that something is amiss. Likewise, I'm not sure I'm game with the idea that probes get on grid, then suddenly turn into drones that MWD and whiz around the cloaker like a couple of mosquitos. It solves the problem of the cloaker just flying along at 300m/s to avoid being pinned down, but no other object functions in this manner, which makes me nervous.


I think you've become jaded by all the other anti-cloaking carebear threads that have come before, and I find it interesting that you call this "non-consensual PVP." In reality, it's "non-consensual non-PVP," as in, "I *WANT* to come turn your ship into a ball of molten slag, but have no means of finding you to make it happen!" I want to risk my precious ship! I want to come at you with points and webs and rockets and anything else I can use against you in what may be a hopelessly misguided adventure, but at the very least will result in a blaze of glory for one of us :)

Nah, no need for something "anticloak"

Just add some sort of fuel to cloaky ships which runs out upon IDK, 5-6 hours of constant cloakyness, just to get rid 2 week old perma-cloaky-rifter-cyno.

I.

a good example would be wormholes, we deal with cloaked people in T3's,a dn ebcause teya re in T3's, theya re actually a threat. but instead of hidnig and complaining, what do we do? we play a little predator v predator.

set out soem tasty bait, look like your ebing completely ignorant of their presence, and when they come to bite, BOOM, 1400mm artillery to the face, and if i recall, 1400mm artillery serves VERY WELL as a cloaking-counter.


but if your problem is with AFK CLOAKERS, the ones who ARE AFK, and therefore WILL NEVER ATTACK YOU, then your being a whiney little bearcub and need to just leave the area your in, because obviosuly you dont have the bravado to hold it form someone who WILL fight.