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POS's Flogging the Dead Horse

First post
Author
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-01-05 19:26:30 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I thought the point of limiting POS anchoring to moons was to limit the number of available spaces and encourage conflict?

If a POS is anchored at a place that some people want it anchored it is likely for many other people to not want it to be there; even if for no other reason than that the POS is helping those people in some way. If a pos is at a stargate defending space by defending the "check point" there will be people who don't want it there. There will be conflict. If a pos defends any resource, there will be conflict. If it is at an asteroid belt, there will be people who don't want it to protect that resource and there will be conflict. When many people don't want the pos there, you will likely see conflict. When any game mechanic allows people to claim a resource that has substantial value or to secure their space, there will be conflict.

If multiple POS are defending a single stargate, then there will be substantial cost in fuel (an ISK sink and profit for miners with increasing fuel prices) for each stargate defended, and cloaky/fast warp (frigs/cruisers) ships will evade them easily. If ships can send probes through the gates and detect enemy POS defenses and camps before committing themselves. Then they can consider force escalations and strategic counters. They can call on allies and plan their entrance through stargates and cynos into the system to take the defenses down.

My conclusion is that there will be more conflict if pos can be placed anywhere. If stargates can be probed, there will be more strategy and multi-alliance teamwork and more large scale conflict.. If POS ownership changes like station ownership, a heavily defended stargate for one side can become a heavily defended stargate for the other side if they prevail.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Solarais
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2013-01-08 05:47:42 UTC
Bump..

Come on ccp!!
tleekett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2013-01-08 08:32:09 UTC
+1 VERY MUCH NEEDED
Anthar Thebess
#164 - 2013-01-08 08:37:45 UTC
Also some buff needed - now pos are way to easy targets - especially for a capital fleet.
Im not talking about indestructible installation, but something that can take at least one capital during fight.
Meytal
Doomheim
#165 - 2013-01-09 17:20:33 UTC
Speaking as a WH dweller, the general consensus is that we do not want docking games in any way, shape, or form to be brought into W-space. Feelings about forcefields are a little more mixed, though personally I like mechanic and gameplay options it offers.

The thing is, none of the services (except WiS) require docking up in a station-type environment. Docking takes the player out of multiplayer space where he can interact with other players in space, willingly or unwillingly, and places him in a single-player station environment where he has minimal and restricted interaction with others, and only when he chooses to interact with them. That doesn't sound like the goal and purpose of EVE, though it is essential for places like Jita and other trade hubs or new player systems ... any highly-populated location.

Generally, even though we don't necessarily live in k-space, we do return there from time to time for various reasons. We could have exposure to space barbies on our trips into k-space. Everything else could be accomplished while keeping proximity-based station services in space.

Instead of rewriting POSes to be more like stations, rewrite stations to be more like POSes. Access to whatever services have been installed at the new-POS would be based on proxmity to the POS itself. Perhaps, as soon as you enter the safety of the new-POS forcefield, you have access to all new-POS services. The station environment, then, would be a single-player version of a new-POS that is always within proximity and has every service that is configured for that station.


If everything is going to be based on the new-POS code, please make docking optional and only allow the docking module in Sov space (note: please let W-space remain untamed, unclaimable). So the NPC-controlled new-POSes would keep docking capabilities in High, Low, and NPC-Null, and the player-controlled new-POSes would keep docking in Sov-Null
space. Everywhere else would not have that "convenience". Existing conveniences would not be nerfed, and as is now, players would be encouraged to fully-dockable stations to achieve safety, thus being exposed to barbies.


Personally, I'd like to keep forcefields, as it also keeps players present in multiplayer space, yet protects them to some degree. It's a different mechanic that allows different gameplay, and has a clear definition of when you are inside and when you are not inside, unlike the invisible station radius around the various racial stations in k-space today. Even if this requires a new-POS module that is used in place of a docking module, it would be a shame to homogenize this kind of mechanic out of the game.

The modularity of the new-POSes would eliminate countless distance calculations between hundreds or thousands of ships and every POS module on grid, which can be quite a high number, for an overall net improvement to performance.
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#166 - 2013-01-09 18:46:12 UTC
What is also important for w-space, is that a pos can be found with d-scan .
So that the locals can't see any probes.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-01-09 18:47:23 UTC
I think CCP should create an official, Idea deposit for the POS revamp.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-01-11 20:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Meytal wrote:
Speaking as a WH dweller, the general consensus is that we do not want docking games in any way, shape, or form to be brought into W-space. Feelings about force fields are a little more mixed, though personally I like mechanic and gameplay options it offers.

The thing is, none of the services (except WiS) require docking up in a station-type environment. Docking takes the player out of multiplayer space where he can interact with other players in space, willingly or unwillingly, and places him in a single-player station environment where he has minimal and restricted interaction with others, and only when he chooses to interact with them. That doesn't sound like the goal and purpose of EVE, though it is essential for places like Jita and other trade hubs or new player systems ... any highly-populated location. [lots of words..].


1m off of the force field and 2001m off of the station are about the same thing. Movement of 1m closer is all that is needed to be invulnerable (to dock/be unlock-able). That pretty much 1-shot your post right there. If anything, the forcefield is more of a "docking" games issue because it is an aggression-neutral process. I think that last point just took out your pod. Re-group and reply or else concede that thousands of pos horse floggers are right.

Edit: CCP says they want it, but nothing has happened except a great presentation about wanting it and no regular updates for us to follow the progress or hope that any work is actually going this direction. Instead we get snowballs and fireworks. The base is easily distracted, but come on now, CCP. Link us a progress thread for us to follow the development cycle and anticipate the release of the pos revamp.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Meytal
Doomheim
#169 - 2013-01-14 13:02:11 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
(silly)

Have you actually fought on POSes? Have you fought on station undock? If you had done both, you would know the differences, which you clearly don't.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2013-01-14 14:07:10 UTC
+1

How has this not been done yet?

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2013-01-14 17:26:10 UTC
How about we Wait for CCP a word about the next expansion content and start a riot shooting things if they don't include POS revamp !?
Jacid
The Upside Down
#172 - 2013-01-15 00:11:44 UTC
POSes defiantly need to be revamped in one form or another, CCP should not take the "its good enough" approach to an aspect of their game that's so important. However a few thoughts that could be added to in to expand the sandbox as it were.

1) Poses and stations are essentially the same thing as in the new system would be for both stations and poses
2) Poses are anchorable anywhere however are only able to go into reinforce mode on moons
3) Pos should be customizable from a 100mil isk ninja pos to a 300billion isk alliance structure of doom and should require an proportional fuel requirements.
4) You must be able to see outside a pos when "docked" and ideally have multiple undock points
5) Pos / Stations are destroyable and drop loot
6) Poses should be claimable if you don't fuel your pos someone else should be able to claim it fuel it and use it as they see fit just as if you were to abandon a ship.
7) Bounties should be collectable on corporate / alliance bounties (if they don't already)

Ultimately a pos is a great way for players to be able to customize their experience make diverse engagements and in general expand game play as they stand now they are a necessity at best..

my 2 cents
Siobhan MacLeary
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2013-01-15 08:01:13 UTC
Just wanted to note something here: The Exhibit D/E link in the OP leads to a file that doesn't load.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2013-01-15 09:07:24 UTC
Spr09 wrote:
oh my god, imagine being able to have dust 514 players run around killing each other in a modular pos like this! ccp would be fools not to make something like this and letting dust 514 people destroy POSs placed by eve players!

Imagine if you could detach the modular POS's structural areas, such as corridor/wing A detach from junction A, send all the DUST'ies inside into vaccuum (friend or Foe) and only those fitted for zero-atmosphere combat wouldnt die, THEN the battle continues in the module slowly falling planetside, AND on the outside of the POS trying to break through the airlocks to get inside.

figure EvE players always hate being unable to participate in the battle deciding their assets, so this way they have the option of purging the "infected/infested" corridors/structures by ejecting them into deep space, in order to save the larger structure (but no guarantee of complete purging as zero-G fitted DUST soldiers could go from one module to the next if they are quick enough).

granted soemthing this cool wouldnt be for YEARS into DUST//EvE development, but it could be fun.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2013-01-15 09:09:49 UTC
Jacid wrote:
POSes defiantly need to be revamped in one form or another, CCP should not take the "its good enough" approach to an aspect of their game that's so important. However a few thoughts that could be added to in to expand the sandbox as it were.

1) Poses and stations are essentially the same thing as in the new system would be for both stations and poses
2) Poses are anchorable anywhere however are only able to go into reinforce mode on moons
3) Pos should be customizable from a 100mil isk ninja pos to a 300billion isk alliance structure of doom and should require an proportional fuel requirements.
4) You must be able to see outside a pos when "docked" and ideally have multiple undock points
5) Pos / Stations are destroyable and drop loot
6) Poses should be claimable if you don't fuel your pos someone else should be able to claim it fuel it and use it as they see fit just as if you were to abandon a ship.
7) Bounties should be collectable on corporate / alliance bounties (if they don't already)

Ultimately a pos is a great way for players to be able to customize their experience make diverse engagements and in general expand game play as they stand now they are a necessity at best..

my 2 cents

As far as pricate POS's go, since we dotn want them to be like outposts/stations with docking games, why not give them 4+ "undock points" they can choose from to get the ebst position against the siegers, but they also are susceptible to a dock/undock queue as a POS is not a station and each POS can only hold X pilots and con only dock them so fast. prolly an unbalanced and bad idea, but i REALLY dont want station games in wormholes.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-01-15 18:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Meytal wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
(silly)

Have you actually fought on POSes? Have you fought on station undock? If you had done both, you would know the differences, which you clearly don't.

Meyta: Watching his pod explode and lacking any intelligent response. Me: Laughing my socks off at Meyta and drinking the tears. Meyta, "Uh .. uh .. you ever? .. meanie .. you suck .. wahh."

You know, Meyta, I have even lived in whs, too. I clearly know that as soon as you move from 1m outside the pos shield to 1m inside it, you become unlockable. Being thus immune to fire, it is like you are docked, except you can see the space outside (a feature long overdue for stations).

Now try this with stations: Burn away from a station. You will be 0m for a while, and then the distance will count up. Move to 2001m. Can't dock. Back to 1999m. Can dock, aggression and session/station/network permission pending. Can't see outside in space currently and people can't steal your stuff in stations; unlike in pos's. Space up to 1999m can be bumped until dock accepted; unlike pos.

Make pos indestructible like station, or station destructible like pos. The later would certainly reduce the number of stations in Eve, especially in null sec. Make all stations require fuel, except at sun or moon/planet where energy can be harvested from resources or flares. If we just call them all stations, and make the mechanics the same (destructible) and the cost the same (depending on size and modules added), the only issue remaining would be how to make the transition. Give a deadline before all pos are unarchorable and unanchored and then have NPCs buy them back. Players have to buy and bring out the new stations before then to move everything from the old to the new.

Edit: Players have suggested stations/pos be fitted like ships with modules in high/med/low slots. I suggest allowing large rigs and Internal slots, too. Let the station move (slowly) and perhaps even to warp within the system if it is not tackled/reinforced. Let it armor or shield tank depending on modules and rigs chosen. Add a slot type called Internal slots where station services are fit and create station rigs which affect those slots. The modules which go here would be Cloning, Medical, Insurance, Fitting, Research, etc. Each module would increase the capabilities of the station. Rigs could convert types of Internal modules allowed while Medium slots could add to the number of each type. Low slots could add a warp drive or the ability to cloak.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2013-01-16 21:22:33 UTC
From the last December CSM Minutes:

Quote:
Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”.


The atmosphere was notably tense at the point.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2013-01-17 06:45:54 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
From the last December CSM Minutes:

Quote:
Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”.


The atmosphere was notably tense at the point.

You have GOT to be kidding us! Here is more evidence of the need to keep flogging this horse. They really don't get it, do they? A system which would "only affect the group of people who manage POSes"? They really don't have the vision that we do.

And call me ignorant, but who is Unifex anyway?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Dacryphile
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2013-01-17 18:01:57 UTC
+1 flogg
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#180 - 2013-01-20 23:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Here is my latest suggestion to make the pos re-work easy and simple:
Creating a ship-type pos shouldn't be harder than creating the Venture or the Noctis. They are already using the PG/CPU fitting model for the Dust suits and the Command Centers of PI. Just extend that to the pos. They already have the code for the Supercaps. All they need to do is to enable the ship/pos to automatically target guns not under player-control and to not remove the pos after player log-off. How hard can that be? Later, they can improve the looks and custom feel of each pos. The defenses will be sentry drones, which can be targeted and destroyed.

Oh yeah, and let go of the "charter" feature. Stations don't have them and they complicate the code. We don't need charters anyway. We are immortal superbeings.

POS fuel can be used to power specific pos functions like moon mining or research. Ice products would be used to jump the pos and stront would be used for powerful defenses, similar to triage on capital ships.

The pos skills will need to be adjusted and new ones added too. We only need enough features to make it work, and the rest can be added later. Let's do it already. Every player in Eve will want one. Big ISK sink there. Lots of production. Lots of trade. Lots of options and fun and ownership.

The Pos should be modular capital ship-like structures, player owned, complete with cyno drive, and without limitations on where it can be. If 10 pos could be cyno'd to a system, they could really make a dynamic universe. The station fills the role of a stationary corp controlled base, while the pos is mobile and player controlled. The easiest part is making the pos player anchorable and controlled already.

The pos rework should be really easy: Just make the towers into new capital-type ships which do not have to have pilots in them and stay on grid when pilots sign out, and translate the pos arrays into fitable modules.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein