These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

DPS Difference between Abaddon and Armageddon
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Snickers Fingers
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-04-12 17:18:35 UTC
I’m trying to figure out the big difference between the Armageddon and the Abaddon in regards to DPS. The Abaddon gets 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage per level and has 8 guns. The Armageddon gets 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret RoF, and has 7 guns.

So in one shot, the Abaddon will do more damage, but the Armageddon is able to fire faster. DPS is determined using BOTH the damager per shot and the RoF. So is it better to have 1 more gun making each volley more powerful, but shoots slower, or one less gun that makes each volley less powerful, but shoots faster allowing more shots to land on target in the same time? My thought is that the difference is probably negligible, but I’m a casual player, so I could be way off the mark here.

You could put heat sinks on both to increase their RoF, but the Armageddon would still fire faster with the same fittings. The slower firing Abaddon would use more capacitor per shot, but have more time for the capacitor to recharge between shots, but then the Armageddon gets a bonus to the cap use of the guns, and it has one less gun. Another wash?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#2 - 2012-04-12 17:22:40 UTC
You want to use the concept of "effective turrets".

The Abaddon has a damage bonus, so at BS5 it looks like 8 turrets * 1.25 damage = 10 eff turrets
The Geddon has a ROF bonus,s o at BS5 it looks like 7 turrets / (1-.25) = 9.333 eff turrets

The more interesting thing is that the Geddon gets a 125m^3 drone bay while the Abaddon only has 75m^3. IIRC the Geddon edges the Abaddon out in raw DPS very slightly, but the Abaddon has WAY better tank. Capacitor is also an issue for the Abaddon, but I don't tend to have real trouble with it most of the time. Depends what you're trying to do, really.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-04-12 17:24:32 UTC
There are a number of factors you're not taking into account here, most obviously fittings, Abaddon resist bonus, and the difference in dronebaysd.
Snickers Fingers
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-04-12 17:30:25 UTC
Thank you Liang - very helpful!
Aamrr
#5 - 2012-04-12 17:34:50 UTC
Interestingly, effective turrets can also be calculated in terms of cap draw -- just leave out damage bonuses and multiply in the capacitor reduction bonuses instead.

Abaddon: 8 effective turrets.
Armageddon: 7*(4/3)*(1/2) = 4.67 effective turrets.

The Abaddon will spend about 71% more cap/sec on its turrets than the Armageddon will. If it's really an issue, you can make up that difference with two rig slots. Between the superior capacitor reservoir of the Abaddon and the fact that cap-cost-reduction bonuses are terrible, most people choose not to.

Final Note: Effective turret calculation can be done with alpha strike, too. Just leave out RoF bonuses.
Snickers Fingers
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-04-12 17:52:39 UTC
Hmm...I'm not following that math. Where's the (4/3) coming from? And my numbers show that would actually be 10.46.

7 / (4/3) = 5.23

5.23 / (1/2) = 10.46

What am I missing? Also, what is this really saying? The Armageddon has enough capacitor to run 10.46 turrets per....volley?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-04-12 18:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Snickers Fingers wrote:
Hmm...I'm not following that math. Where's the (4/3) coming from? And my numbers show that would actually be 10.46.

7 / (4/3) = 5.23

5.23 / (1/2) = 10.46

What am I missing? Also, what is this really saying? The Armageddon has enough capacitor to run 10.46 turrets per....volley?


I was wondering if* the wonky notation would confuse you. It does work out because 4/3 == (1/(1-.25)):
- Armageddon Cap Turrets: 7 turrets / (1-.25) [rof bonus]* (1-.50) [cap bonus] = 4.666
- Abaddon Cap Turrets: 8 turrets

-Liang

Ed: Missing words FTL.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aamrr
#8 - 2012-04-12 18:34:26 UTC
It appears my explanation was a bit too brief. Thanks for clarifying for me, Liang.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-04-12 19:13:49 UTC
what if you factor in other RoF skills and implants? i heard something about RoF boni stacking additively...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-04-12 19:19:51 UTC
The Armageddon is a pure gank boat. It doesn't have the CPU to fit a large tank. You want to go all out on dps with that.

The Abaddon can fit great dps AND a strong buffer but it cap is a weak point. Apart from ganking, you can fit pure tank but a balanced approach is usually best. Both ships require high SP to fit/run to their full potential.

The Apocalypse is a sniper, has least cap issues and requires lowest SP to fly well.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-04-13 05:11:17 UTC
lrn2eft?

geddon gets a lot more DPS than a baddon, a baddon gets a lot more tank.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-04-13 07:14:37 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
lrn2eft?

geddon gets a lot more DPS than a baddon, a baddon gets a lot more tank.


Turret DPS is similar though.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2012-04-13 08:48:09 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
what if you factor in other RoF skills and implants? i heard something about RoF boni stacking additively...


(1) The plural of bonus is bonuses, not boni (or bonii Roll ).

(2) All implant bonuses that I am aware of are multiplicative, not additive. Certainly all the turret ones are. Implant bonuses, like skill bonuses, are also not subject to stacking penalties.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-04-13 08:51:33 UTC
Something EFT overlooks is stuff like drone travel time, the RoF not always being enough to give the geddon an extra hit over the abaddon and similar. The abaddon will always hit harder with each volley, and depeding on how many volleys each ship gets to fire, and how long the geddons drones needs to travel the real damage you do with each ship is going to vary over time.

On paper, sure the geddon might look cooler. But in reality....

You get the picture.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#15 - 2012-04-13 09:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Gank Geddons are fairly effectively for raping face, Navy Geddons (Which run at around the cost of an Abaddon now guys 0.o) are even better and are great hot drop boats.

[Armageddon Navy Issue, Neddon Hot Drops]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Large Anti-Thermic Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Garde II x5/Berserker II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-04-13 10:24:15 UTC
If you are gonna go for a setup with active hardeners, and a neut instead of a heavy cap booster, why not do it like this instead. Will save you isk on non faction hardeners, plus a heavy neut.

[Armageddon Navy Issue, lol]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Aluka 7th
#17 - 2012-04-13 11:15:41 UTC
Armageddon and abbadon are two sides of the coin.
Arma has better cap stability and moves around faster and has one more low slot.
Abbadon is strong regarding resists and has one more mid slot.

If there is prolonged fight without remote cap or mwd is required I would choose Arma.
And in rest cases I would go for ...... navy arma not abbadon. It has the best tank out of 3, has 175m3 drone bay so can field 5x heavy drones and 5x EC-600 for defense. And has 8-4-8 slot layout with plenty of grid and cpu.
Wtih t1 rigs nad t2 fitting in fleets i get from 300-500kEHP (Slave set, Damnation boost and/or Erebus bonus)
Most effective from 10-50km.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-04-13 13:16:27 UTC
I don't believe in Abaddons. They suck balls. You can't rely on them . They may enjoy some sort of staying power but that's where it stops. The popular opinion is that I am wrong and Abaddon is awesome thanks to it's resist bonus but just stop and look at what it really does: it only dies slower than the rest, then it's dead all the same and at 3x times the price tag.

Go ahead and quote fancy pants EFT stuff entirely made out of improbable numbers if you will but in the real world you will never kill anything by tanking it.

It knows what you think.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-04-13 13:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sphit Ker
Comy 1 wrote:
If you are gonna go for a setup with active hardeners, and a neut instead of a heavy cap booster, why not do it like this instead. Will save you isk on non faction hardeners, plus a heavy neut.

[Armageddon Navy Issue, lol]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5



I have to quote you on that. Just to make a point for an entirely different case which involve this topic in no relevant way at all: Fitting on amarr boats is just sooo sad it's flat out hopelessly weak. Look at it: faction hull sporting boosted fitting margins, right? meta 4 MEDIUM cap injector, META whatever ECCM, meta 4 neut and adaptive nano plate because nothing else wil fit anyway?

It's downright insulting! Fix that up pls kthxbye.

It knows what you think.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-04-13 22:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Sphit Ker wrote:
I have to quote you on that. Just to make a point for an entirely different case which involve this topic in no relevant way at all: Fitting on amarr boats is just sooo sad it's flat out hopelessly weak. Look at it: faction hull sporting boosted fitting margins, right? meta 4 MEDIUM cap injector, META whatever ECCM, meta 4 neut and adaptive nano plate because nothing else wil fit anyway?

It's downright insulting! Fix that up pls kthxbye.

For cap boosters, ECCM, and neut, the meta 4 items are identical to the T2 item for the desired effect, while being easier to fit. Agreed that fitting is kind of low but the Armageddon itself is a tier 1 battleship.
Compare it to the other tier 1 navy faction battleships:
ANI has powergrid of 17,325, compared to Typhoon Fleet Issue of 13,125, Scorpion Navy Issue of 10,350, and the Dominix Navy Issue of 9,900.
The CPU is the real limitation. Out of all the tier 1 faction variants, the ANI has a CPU of 557, compared to 660 of the DNI and TFI, and 787 of the SNI. The SNI fits missile launchers for its weapons, which are the most CPU intensive, plus like all Caldari ships it has to be shield fitted which itself tends to be very heavy on CPU. The DNI and TFI also have reasons for generally needing more CPU, namely that the common fittings for the DNI tend to be CPU intensive as well with drone mods, very heavy tank, and railguns, and that the fittings for the TFI have to use both projectiles and missile launchers (meaning they also have to use two different damage mods for max DPS).

tl;dr: Amarr fitting isn't as bad as you make it seem, you're just trying to do an awful lot with a battleship that isn't really meant to stand on its own to begin with.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
12Next page