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Margin Trade Scam Possible fix ?
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Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-04-12 14:43:53 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
mxzf wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back.... and negative ballence should be a 1 time thing even for 1isk once your 1isk or 1bil isk in debt you cant buy anything till its payed off..... not so it keeps building up.


The issue is when someone makes an alt and goes 1B in debt with them to their main and then just biomasses the alt. Suddenly the main has an extra 1B with no consequences.


read what i said at the start....( players with debts should not be able to delete or create new chars untill its paid)

Then we would create new accounts.

*EDIT: Also, HAHAHAHAAHA, SCAMMED OF A MONTHS ISK. AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.






HA.


here we have an example of a bright spark
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-04-12 14:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vengorin wrote:
still trying to justify a skill that is being misused
…because the misuse isn't a problem.

Quote:
and realy people stop looking at the small picture and at the larger scale it will screw trade a lot again ( Whats to stop people placeing fake buy orders all over ones that dont look like a scam)...
We are looking at the big picture. The big picture is that scamming is legitimate gameplay, so there is no reason to stop it. The big picture is that your solution creates a massive amount of problems that need to be fixed in turn, and that your solutions to those problems wreck things all over the place. The big picture is that it cannot screw trading because of how the market as a whole works — the thing that stops your scenario is that, when that happens, the scam no longer functions.

The fact remains: in its current form, Margin Trading ensures that no-one gets screwed — the seller and the buyer are both secure and don't lose a dime. The scam relies entirely on the mark making a huge mistake and not checking the market to figure out the value of the goods he's being tricked into buying.

Quote:
and im 100% sure
No, never make these kinds of bets because you will always be wrong. Again, this is a game where scamming is entirely legal, and people will defend that right to scam fools just to ensure and protect the integrity of that gaming environment.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and you're creating a huge amount of problems through your solution to this non-issue. Each on its own would make your proposal less than good, and together, they make it absolutely horrid. The actual solution to your problem is one that has been around for several thousand years: caveat emptor — make sure you understand your investment before you make it.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#23 - 2012-04-12 14:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Vengorin wrote:
by all means create new accounts pay real cash for a new one every 8-12 days.... or just buy plex ands sell it

Or we could create new accounts with plex, get that plex back with the buddy program, generate loads of ISK using your suggested mechanics and then burn the accounts and move on to the next ones.

I think you underestimate our capacity to scam the crap out of any poorly thought out system you throw at us.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#24 - 2012-04-12 14:49:17 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
here we have an example of a bright spark

Obligatory umadbro.

Also, checking my alt's transaction history apparently the margin trading scam you fell for was mine. <3 BFF?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-04-12 14:52:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
still trying to justify a skill that is being misused
…because the misuse isn't a problem.

Quote:
and realy people stop looking at the small picture and at the larger scale it will screw trade a lot again ( Whats to stop people placeing fake buy orders all over ones that dont look like a scam)...
We are looking at the big picture. The big picture is that scamming is legitimate gameplay, so there is no reason to stop it. The big picture is that your solution creates a massive amount of problems that need to be fixed in turn, and that your solutions to those problems wreck things all over the place. The big picture is that it cannot screw trading because of how the market as a whole works — the thing that stops your scenario is that, when that happens, the scam no longer functions.

The fact remains: in its current form, Margin Trading ensures that no-one gets screwed — the seller and the buyer are both secure and don't lose a dime. The scam relies entirely on the mark making a huge mistake and not checking the market to figure out the value of the goods he's being tricked into buying.

Quote:
and im 100% sure
No, never make these kinds of bets because you will always be wrong. Again, this is a game where scamming is entirely legal, and people will defend that right to scam fools just to ensure and protect the integrity of that gaming environment.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and you're creating a huge amount of problems through your solution to this non-issue. Each on its own would make your proposal less than good, and together, they make it absolutely horrid. The actual solution to your problem is one that has been around for several thousand years: caveat emptor — make sure you understand your investment before you make it.


member for 1 year 11 months right ? hmm so u know it all ... oh dam new people might join the game could that be a possibilty... and again if u dont have the isk or you know it will be with you shortly then whats the harm in changing it ?

still wont affect real deals fair traders coz it will still do its job .... debt = NO placement of buy orders - YES placement of sell orders ? still protected YES - player abuseing skill protected NO... hmm
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-04-12 14:53:28 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
here we have an example of a bright spark

Obligatory umadbro.

Also, checking my alt's transaction history apparently the margin trading scam you fell for was mine. <3 BFF?


well it was not you coz i spoke to the player who done it :P funny that your still showing how bright you are :P
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-04-12 14:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
right any way back to the point of this post witch is about the trade as a hole (not just the Scam that these people love so much)

whats a real buy order and whats not what happends if u spend half a day collecting stuff to meet a buy order travel many jumps to sell it and you cant ? and your stuck with tones of goods that you cant sell

so who is protected? your cash is sat there and your cant sell the goods.... still i cant get an anser about this people still keep def the scam and just dont anser a simple question... i will tell you why coz they know to fix it will ruin the scam and to ruin the scam will... you got it resolve the issue
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#28 - 2012-04-12 15:02:18 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
member for 1 year 11 months right ? hmm so u know it all ...

You realize 1 year 11 months is the amount of time Tippia has been with that specific corp, right? She has been playing Eve for nearly 5 years.

Vengorin wrote:
well it was not you coz i spoke to the player who done it :P funny that your still showing how bright you are :P

Hehe, worth a try.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-04-12 15:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
member for 1 year 11 months right ? hmm so u know it all ...

You realize 1 year 11 months is the amount of time Tippia has been with that specific corp, right? She has been playing Eve for nearly 5 years.

Vengorin wrote:
well it was not you coz i spoke to the player who done it :P funny that your still showing how bright you are :P

Hehe, worth a try.


funny even tho you try corecting me you have proven my point even more its all good and well old players can do well and know what to look for but what about new players ....

def a scam that will drive new players and other players away will not help eve grow expand it will stump its growth because of your greed and wanting to line your own pockets

but you all love this game so much dont you that you would be willing to do that
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-04-12 15:09:32 UTC
You know that thing on your shoulders, looks like a melon and just as empty?

Use it.

1. Look at market.
2. See a high buy order.
3. See a low sell order.
4. ???
5. PROFIT! *squints eyes* I see what you did there. If one order is high and the other is low, but they haven't filled....why is that? Oh, its a scam I am just going to *slowly back ups* to leave it alone. Its obvious not going to give me any profit.

And that is how you fix margin trade scam. It relys on your greed and stupid gumption to just do it, step back for a second and don't fall for greed you can't fall for the scam.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#31 - 2012-04-12 15:10:45 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
funny even tho you try corecting me you have proven my point even more its all good and well old players can do well and know what to look for but what about new players ....

New players get scammed, welcome to Eve.

Vengorin wrote:
def a scam that will drive new players and other players away will not help eve grow expand it will stump its growth because of your greed and wanting to line your own pockets

a) I don't scam, I still think your idea is bad.

b) Margin trading has been in this game a long time, ever seen the subscription rates for Eve?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-04-12 15:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
Aqriue wrote:
You know that thing on your shoulders, looks like a melon and just as empty?

Use it.

1. Look at market.
2. See a high buy order.
3. See a low sell order.
4. ???
5. PROFIT! *squints eyes* I see what you did there. If one order is high and the other is low, but they haven't filled....why is that? Oh, its a scam I am just going to *slowly back ups* to leave it alone. Its obvious not going to give me any profit.

And that is how you fix margin trade scam. It relys on your greed and stupid gumption to just do it, step back for a second and don't fall for greed you can't fall for the scam.


another bright spark who love the margin trade scam...... yes you are 100% right in how to spot the scam... thank you for pointing that out the world needs more people like you.

any way can any one anser any of my questions or comment of the exsample i have given ... no all you can do is def the scam... dont change it def scam dont read anything in post just def scam MUST def scam...

and now try reading about the part that says.... you can spot the scam.... but whats to stop people from placeing fake buy orders for the kicks)... witch funny its is being done... or doing it at a smaller scale so you cant spot it ?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-04-12 15:13:14 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
here we have an example of a bright spark

Obligatory umadbro.

Also, checking my alt's transaction history apparently the margin trading scam you fell for was mine. <3 BFF?


well it was not you coz i spoke to the player who done it :P funny that your still showing how bright you are :P

Learn proper english, THEN we will talk about this (bad) idea of yours.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-04-12 15:13:20 UTC
Vengorin wrote:

whats a real buy order and whats not what happends if u spend half a day collecting stuff to meet a buy order travel many jumps to sell it and you cant ? and your stuck with tones of goods that you cant sell

Don't spend a day trying to fill one order. Set up a buy order, let the goods pile up, one day you see a good buy order try to fill it. Don't try to immedietely buy off market if you don't have the item, because that is how you get screwed over. If you have the item already, but perhaps were paying 1000 isk for it and see a 1500 isk buy order when someone is selling for 1250...why buy the 1250 when you already had it at 1000 isk?

So....DON'T IMMEDIEATELY FILL ORDERS BY BUY STRAIGHT FROM MARKET AND FLIPPING BACK. Problem solved.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#35 - 2012-04-12 15:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Vengorin wrote:

still wont affect real deals fair traders coz it will still do its job


who the f*ck is a fair trader. And when did eve turn into a fairness oriented game?


Vengorin wrote:
right any way back to the point of this post witch is about the trade as a hole (not just the Scam that these people love so much)

whats a real buy order and whats not what happends if u spend half a day collecting stuff to meet a buy order travel many jumps to sell it and you cant ? and your stuck with tones of goods that you cant sell

so who is protected? your cash is sat there and your cant sell the goods.... still i cant get an anser about this people still keep def the scam and just dont anser a simple question... i will tell you why coz they know to fix it will ruin the scam and to ruin the scam will... you got it resolve the issue


yeah you sit on tons of useless goods noone wants, because of greed and not checking the markets. Thats ok.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-04-12 15:16:31 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Vengorin wrote:

whats a real buy order and whats not what happends if u spend half a day collecting stuff to meet a buy order travel many jumps to sell it and you cant ? and your stuck with tones of goods that you cant sell

Don't spend a day trying to fill one order. Set up a buy order, let the goods pile up, one day you see a good buy order try to fill it. Don't try to immedietely buy off market if you don't have the item, because that is how you get screwed over. If you have the item already, but perhaps were paying 1000 isk for it and see a 1500 isk buy order when someone is selling for 1250...why buy the 1250 when you already had it at 1000 isk?

So....DON'T IMMEDIEATELY FILL ORDERS BY BUY STRAIGHT FROM MARKET AND FLIPPING BACK. Problem solved.


YES thanks again... point out the stuff old players know ... new players .... hmmm
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-04-12 15:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
the scam preys on new players get it into your thick skulls .....


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just put that there in the hope that some one wont scan past this fact and go back to (DEF THE SCAM)
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#38 - 2012-04-12 15:19:16 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
the scam preys on new players get it into your thick skulls .....


yes, like the navy raven ancient scam too... or trade scam or for whatever scam people fall, they always target new players because experienced ones dont fall for crap like that!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2012-04-12 15:19:45 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
member for 1 year 11 months right ?
What? Ugh

Quote:
if u dont have the isk or you know it will be with you shortly then whats the harm in changing it ?
Again, what? Ugh
You're not making any sense here. What are you talking about?

Quote:
still wont affect real deals fair traders coz it will still do its job .... debt = NO placement of buy orders - YES placement of sell orders ? still protected YES - player abuseing skill protected NO... hmm
…except that it is either hugely exploitable, which affects everyone and breaks the game; or it requires a completely unreasonable metagaming mechanic that affects everyone and breaks the game. Either way, you are not actually addressing any kind of problem, and your solutions only introduce new problems that need to be fixed. This means your idea is bad. Go back to the drawing board, and this time, start by figuring out what the problem is that you want to solve — unless you have a problem, you can't have a solution.

Quote:
whats a real buy order and whats not what happends if u spend half a day collecting stuff to meet a buy order travel many jumps to sell it and you cant ? and your stuck with tones of goods that you cant sell
You can always sell it. Perhaps not at the price you had wished, but you can always sell it. This is the risk you take whenever you invest in goods in order to mark them up and sell them for a profit. It is not a problem and it doesn't need to be fixed — it's just how trading works.

Quote:
so who is protected?
By Margin Trading, both parties: the buyer doesn't risk going into negative wallet, thereby ruining his character; the seller doesn't risk losing his stuff and not getting any money for it.

The scam is just a scam, and as such is not a problem that needs to be solved.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#40 - 2012-04-12 15:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Vengorin wrote:
the scam preys on new players get it into your thick skulls .....

And that is a good thing, again, welcome to Eve online Lol

*EDIT: Also, you know that awkward moment when you aren't quite sure if someone is really, really dumb or really, really good at trolling? Kind of having that right now.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]