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A business proposition to ILF [IPI]
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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 - 2012-04-14 01:36:47 UTC
Jeane DuPont wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
This is cute.

Did Vechtor put you up to this, Jeane DuPont?

Of course he did. Vechtor is a reasonable person.

Its a shame I-RED wasn't the one to make those efforts before. Understandable, tho, given I-RED is strictly military.


Something like that.

Katrina Oniseki
Jeane DuPont
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-04-14 01:43:20 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Something like that.

...which woudn't stop you from evaluating the idea without prejudgements...

Ironactly stating it is "cute" adds nothing.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#23 - 2012-04-14 02:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Jeane DuPont wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Something like that.

...which woudn't stop you from evaluating the idea without prejudgements...

Ironactly stating it is "cute" adds nothing.


Actually, I have evaluated the idea. I did so before making my first reply to the thread. In fact, I've no issue with the idea beyond a few nitpicks. True, it does need a little work for viability and efficiency... but it's still a good one. It's the fact that you, DuPont Enterprises, are the one presenting it that it draws and smirk and a laugh.

The idea would be sound were it made between parties who have already established trust and goodwill between them. DuPont Enterprises has not. Before you start launching risky and trust-sensitive joint ventures with the IPI, I think you should first tackle the rather ill reputation your oft named member has brought to your corporation.

Simply put; it wouldn't be so bad if someone more reputable than you were suggesting this. (Which incidentally, is exactly what's 'cute' about this situation.)

Katrina Oniseki
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#24 - 2012-04-14 02:31:46 UTC
Jeane DuPont wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Amusingly enough, the same could be said of your proposal. Just swap out the acronyms and a couple words:

The proposed DUPO starbase would not be a public shipyard in the sense that no one can freely fill a pipeline of industrial manufacturing such as people normaly do on general megacorps stations. Why would anyone justify donating such a big amount of resources on something that is not so clearly working towards anyone but DUPO?


Doesn't make sense, because the idea was to create something different than what you are saying, as I stated above. I just wrote that this woudn't be a DUPO POS because my proposition would be for ILF [IPI] to be in control of it.



No, what doesn't make sense is how you think a tower anchored by someone in DUPO, which makes it a DUPO POS by definition, can be controlled by someone outside of DUPO. Clearly you've never even looked into how tower access works. Only pilots who are registered members of the corporation that anchored the tower - and have the appropriate roles activated for their account - can work with a tower or its attached facilities. Anyone outside of that corporation, even within the same alliance, cannot do anything meaningful.

If the IPI wants a tower they will be in control of, they will put one up themselves.

Oh wait. They already did.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Jeane DuPont
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-04-14 02:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeane DuPont
Morwen Lagann wrote:
No, what doesn't make sense is how you think a tower anchored by someone in DUPO, which makes it a DUPO POS by definition, can be controlled by someone outside of DUPO. Clearly you've never even looked into how tower access works. Only pilots who are registered members of the corporation that anchored the tower - and have the appropriate roles activated for their account - can work with a tower or its attached facilities. Anyone outside of that corporation, even within the same alliance, cannot do anything meaningful.

If the IPI wants a tower they will be in control of, they will put one up themselves.

Oh wait. They already did.


You clearly didn't read my reply to Ms. Eionell about those doubts. DUPO keeps a large POS in a C5 WH system and is well aware on how POS clearances works. This doesn't prevent by no means the kind of joint venture I proposed anywhere in New Eden for any tasks you could imagine.

As for ILF already having erected a POS in Intaki, yes they did, they used to have a station called Prosperity Station which also happened to have a shipyrard where all those ships manufactured by them were put to sell at Intaki 5-5. Production on those shipyards had to be stoped when ILF was accused of collaborating with State Protectorate forces and facing a war against Moira. as you can study on this following links:

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1265770

http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3760&tid=7

What you don't know is that by this time, Vechtor was one of the major colaborators to ILF by trading huge ammounts of minerals out and into Intaki filling many contracts Apollonius had put as well as many minerals buy orders Apollonius Verus had placed in 5-5 so the "manufacturing machine" could be kept at work.

Its amazing what we have filled in our databanks regarding Intaki history...
Vechtor
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-04-14 02:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
The idea would be sound were it made between parties who have already established trust and goodwill between them. DuPont Enterprises has not. Before you start launching risky and trust-sensitive joint ventures with the IPI, I think you should first tackle the rather ill reputation your oft named member has brought to your corporation.

Simply put; it wouldn't be so bad if someone more reputable than you were suggesting this. (Which incidentally, is exactly what's 'cute' about this situation.)


Katrina, I'm sorry, but with regard to what reputation are you referring to?

How many kills I have for I-RED? How many kills I have for KISEC? How many kills I have for ILF and how many kills I had for ICC while it was an I-RED member? I even fought with I-RED in Syndicate against Ta8ula Rasa with 100% efficiency before you could even fly a damn frigate... what are you talking about?

If you are referring to the reputation of threatening ILF of destruction, can you prove the original idea was mine? Because I can prove you it isn't, and as matter of fact if I read this one more time, I'll make all the NEOCOM transmissions I have about this issue public, right here, in the IGS, on a different thread.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#27 - 2012-04-14 03:09:06 UTC
Allow me to make this crystal clear to you, since it has become obvious to everyone here that you're thicker than the plating of an Abaddon:

If you or someone else in DUPO anchors the tower, the only people with actual, tangible control are in DUPO.

Not me, not people in ILF or any of the other corporations in IPI, not Jacus ******* Roden. DUPO.

If there's any risk here, it's entirely on the IPI's side, and it's well beyond the limits of what are considered acceptable levels. They're providing half of the fuel, and all of the construction materials, and you are the ones with direct access to the tower and its facilities. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from just taking the materials and leaving. Absolutely nothing, except your word.

I'm normally pretty open to taking risks and trusting people, but not when they're running around doing everything but what they need to do to get people to want to trust them.

You're not making anyone here think that trusting you is even remotely a good idea.

Quite the opposite.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#28 - 2012-04-14 03:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Vechtor wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
The idea would be sound were it made between parties who have already established trust and goodwill between them. DuPont Enterprises has not. Before you start launching risky and trust-sensitive joint ventures with the IPI, I think you should first tackle the rather ill reputation your oft named member has brought to your corporation.

Simply put; it wouldn't be so bad if someone more reputable than you were suggesting this. (Which incidentally, is exactly what's 'cute' about this situation.)


Katrina, I'm sorry, but with regard to what reputation are you referring to?

How many kills I have for I-RED? How many kills I have for KISEC? How many kills I have for ILF and how many kills I had for ICC while it was an I-RED member?

If you are referring to the reputation of threatening ILF of destruction, can you prove the original idea was mine? Because I can prove you it isn't, and as matter of fact if I read this one more time, I'll make all the NEOCOM transmissions I have about this issue public, right here, in the IGS, on a different thread.



First, allow me to state that the amount of kills you have for I-RED means next to nothing. In fact, even I have more kills than you and I've only been part of I-RED since July YC113. Even so your combat record is irrelevant since we're discussing industrial activities.

The reputation I vaguely referred to is one of being untrustworthy or generally undesirable to deal with. From what I gather, you're almost persona non grata

Of course, if I'm wrong.. someone other than you or Jeane DuPont or any other member of your corporation or alliance is welcome to correct me.

Katrina Oniseki
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#29 - 2012-04-14 03:20:06 UTC
Jeane DuPont wrote:
As for ILF already having erected a POS in Intaki, yes they did, they used to have a station called Prosperity Station which also happened to have a shipyrard where all those ships manufactured by them were put to sell at Intaki 5-5. Production on those shipyards had to be stoped when ILF was accused of collaborating with State Protectorate forces and facing a war against Moira. as you can study on this following links:

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1265770

http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3760&tid=7

What you don't know is that by this time, Vechtor was one of the major colaborators to ILF by trading huge ammounts of minerals out and into Intaki filling many contracts Apollonius had put as well as many minerals buy orders Apollonius Verus had placed in 5-5 so the "manufacturing machine" could be kept at work.

Its amazing what we have filled in our databanks regarding Intaki history...

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

The fact remains: ILF has a starbase in Intaki. We are perfectly capable of accepting third party contracts to manufacture ships at said starbase if we so choose. There is no need for us to take on the burden of a second starbase for that purpose.

Suresha

We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#30 - 2012-04-14 03:37:48 UTC
Jeane DuPont wrote:
I don't know how this could be a scam if DUPO would be taking this ammount of risks with things happening in a pipeline where things don't happen if previous organization doesn't take place.



You set up a tower and run fuel in with a Blockade Runner. The amount of "previous organisation" required to do that is entirely your own.

You're then requesting a large volume of mineral resources (at a time when minerals are at a high value cost and "experts" are suggesting they only go higher) from another corporation under the guise that you will infact use those minerals for a stated value. At this point the only guarantee they have is your word on this.

And as we've seen your word is somewhat meaningless due to bad blood with an entity within your corporation. Instead of publicly coming out and trying to play the public pressure or shame card to more than one entity here, perhaps you should work better on your diplomatic relations and give the parties you plan on working with reason to actually trust you before coming out here with grand public showpieces. Quite frankly things of this level are private matters that really should be negotiated in private communique.


I mean no offence, but I've been monitoring this for no more than half a day and I can even come to that logical evaluation of the situation, how haven't you spotted this?



Morwen Lagann wrote:
not Jacus ******* Roden.


F##k Roden

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vechtor
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-04-14 11:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

The reputation I vaguely referred to is one of being untrustworthy or generally undesirable to deal with. From what I gather, you're almost persona non grata


Katrina,
when we deal with people's reputations, we always have to take them on their full measure.
It doesn't really matter the ammount of kills each one has for I-RED and of course you have them more than me as you are flying with them still... What matters is what people do even if it is minimal, compared to what they can do inside their own limits... I've spent countless hours in the past working for all those organizations, many times relying only on my own efforts without any replacement for none of my losses.

But I know about what "reputation" you are refering to and I decided I will bring some things public on a different thread not because I expect anyone to read, but because I want to make a public record about it for myself.
Jeane DuPont
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-04-14 11:05:40 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Allow me to make this crystal clear to you, since it has become obvious to everyone here that you're thicker than the plating of an Abaddon:

If you or someone else in DUPO anchors the tower, the only people with actual, tangible control are in DUPO.


Now this is weird, because I already replied that we woudn't necessarely be in charge of anchoring anything in this venture. Seems you are speaking things without reading anymore...
Jeane DuPont
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-04-14 11:13:53 UTC
Sakaane Eionell wrote:

The fact remains: ILF has a starbase in Intaki. We are perfectly capable of accepting third party contracts to manufacture ships at said starbase if we so choose. There is no need for us to take on the burden of a second starbase for that purpose.

Fair enough Ms. Eionell.

I appreciate your time reading my proposition and thinking about it.

Fact remains that your starbase in Intaki is not the one I envisioned because it is not public nor serves public needs. I tried to offer you an idea to actually make a public shipyards with our combined efforts, merging our strengths and sharing the enterprise risks towards something that could be great in terms of services and Intaki development, at the same time allowing revenues to be made with it.

Even by judging DUPO woudn't be trustworthy to share the risks of this venture, fact remains that this was a good idea and you can take it into account shall you ever decide try it by your own means or with different allies of yours, being I-RED or whomever. I really don't care if we would be indeed involved in this or not as I wrote in the very first post of this thread:

Quote:

What I'm offering is the sharing of risks on something truly great to the Intaki community, something that would bring attention from anyone in New Eden. Suffice to say that if IPI takes it into consideration without DuPont Enterprises help as I'm offering, or taking other parties help, the same goal would be achieved. In my understanding, a more legitimate one than simply using Agoze CAS station in terms of Intaki Prosperity initiatives.


No one will deny, although, that this would be the first real Intaki shipyards, not the current starbase you have.

My regards,

Jeane DuPont
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#34 - 2012-04-14 12:51:14 UTC
Jeane DuPont wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Allow me to make this crystal clear to you, since it has become obvious to everyone here that you're thicker than the plating of an Abaddon:

If you or someone else in DUPO anchors the tower, the only people with actual, tangible control are in DUPO.


Now this is weird, because I already replied that we woudn't necessarely be in charge of anchoring anything in this venture. Seems you are speaking things without reading anymore...


Jeane DuPont wrote:
DuPont would take the responsibility to assemble, keep and refuel half the costs of a station


Jeane DuPont wrote:
DuPont would take the responsibility to assemble, keep


Jeane DuPont wrote:
assemble, keep


Precisely how does one achieve that goal without owning the damn thing?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Zius Darah
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-04-14 13:25:44 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Jeane DuPont wrote:
assemble, keep


Precisely how does one achieve that goal without owning the damn thing?


Jeane DuPont wrote:
I was generaly speaking. I am well aware of the restriction CONCORD laws imposes on the who can own and use what regarding starbases. Generaly speaking, a joint venture such as this would imply in one of the parts being in fact anchoring every structure and using it. Generaly speaking, the way DUPO could be helping with that would be like buying part of the given POS, haulling arrays to Intaki if necessary, assisting your pilots on what is possible to initiate operations and so on... By keeping it, generaly speaking, DUPO would be responsible to buying half of its fuel, haulling fuel to Intaki if needed etc. The way I wrote at this IGS was a general proposition, for starters, and wasn't my intention to go deep into the details of how this would be implemented, which I believe would not be in the scope of this thread.


Gallente schools need to teach their students how to read better. They seem to be severely lacking cognitive alphabetization.
You just have to read what the woman said. Or maybe make your own proposition on how this could work instead keeping the approach of void questions.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#36 - 2012-04-14 13:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Zius Darah wrote:
Gallente schools need to teach their students how to read better. They seem to be severely lacking cognitive alphabetization.
You just have to read what the woman said. Or maybe make your own proposition on how this could work instead keeping the approach of void questions.


Jeane DuPont wrote:
Generaly speaking, the way DUPO could be helping with that would be like buying part of the given POS, haulling arrays to Intaki if necessary, assisting your pilots on what is possible to initiate operations and so on



"Could" there is the keyword.

The keywords in the original proposition are "Assemble" and "Keep"

That original proposition is where people are putting their critisism. It seems your school was very poor at teaching you how to read things in their proper context. It leads to you shooting your foot in your mouth like this.


Questions serve purpose, because they're pointing out the things your corporation obviously failed to think about before putting this motion forward. It's not my position to resolve your problems for you.




Edit: Addenum, if you're going try and negotiate a deal with a Federation based entity, it might not be the smartest idea to insult their education system. Just saying.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Zius Darah
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-04-14 14:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zius Darah
Caellach Marellus wrote:


"Could" there is the keyword.

The keywords in the original proposition are "Assemble" and "Keep"

Questions serve purpose, because they're pointing out the things your corporation obviously failed to think about before putting this motion forward. It's not my position to resolve your problems for you.

Edit: Addenum, if you're going try and negotiate a deal with a Federation based entity, it might not be the smartest idea to insult their education system. Just saying.


I see what you see as faillure as means to overcome difficulties implementing good ideas by bringing more people to discussion, which in the end would be mostly aligned with IGS goals.
Questions serve purpose when they lead to better understanding of things, which wasn't your case. Thats why I called them "void".

As for the edit, I thought DUPO was offering help to a Secessionist group of people, not Federation itself.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#38 - 2012-04-14 14:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Zius Darah wrote:
As for the edit, I thought DUPO was offering help to a Sessionist group of people, not Federation itself.


They're still an entity within Federal space. Still grew up in the Federation and went through it's system, even if they don't want to be a part of it in the future.

Quote:
Questiones server purpose when they lead to better understanding of things, which wasn't your case. Thats why I called them "void".


Sometimes the best way to help is to ask the questions they haven't thought of, then when they answer it they realise their glaring oversights.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Zius Darah
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-04-14 14:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zius Darah
Caellach Marellus wrote:

They're still an entity within Federal space. Still grew up in the Federation and went through it's system, even if they don't want to be a part of it in the future.


Ok you just got me confused: when I said about cognitive alphabetization deficiencies, I was referring to you, not ILF. Are you ILF?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#40 - 2012-04-14 14:11:45 UTC
Zius Darah wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

They're still an entity within Federal space. Still grew up in the Federation and went through it's system, even if they don't want to be a part of it in the future.


Ok you just got me confused: when I said about cognitive alphabetization deficiencies, I was referring to you, not ILF. Are you ILF?


You said Gallente, a term used for both a race of people and an entire political empire.

If you're going to whitewash an entire system you should check who else you encompass within it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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