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How's going the war mechanics changes? it's been debated?

First post
Author
Agnostos Theos
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-04-14 13:27:27 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Yes, band together for protection, because being escorted by 200 batlteships can prevent you from being alphaed in 10 seconds by half a dozen destroyers... oh wait. Roll



But an indi corp that made and supplied thrashers to their 'friends' couldn't possible gain an advantage out of clearing an area of competition ?!?
And of course their gang of friendly thrashers wouldn't dream of acting as an early warning system if there was another group of thrashers bouncing the belts ?

Amazing how uncommon, common sense can be isn't it !

EDIT: I can't type :-(
Kemal Ataturk
Antisocial Mental Disorder
#22 - 2012-04-14 20:03:38 UTC
Agnostos Theos wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Yes, band together for protection, because being escorted by 200 batlteships can prevent you from being alphaed in 10 seconds by half a dozen destroyers... oh wait. Roll



But an indi corp that made and supplied thrashers to their 'friends' couldn't possible gain an advantage out of clearing an area of competition ?!?
And of course their gang of friendly thrashers wouldn't dream of acting as an early warning system if there was another group of thrashers bouncing the belts ?

Amazing how uncommon, common sense can be isn't it !

EDIT: I can't type :-(



Why again is wardec in empire good/necessary/wanted/liked?
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#23 - 2012-04-14 21:10:12 UTC
If there was a condition of surrender or object to fight over or something that you can call in friends to fight over. I think it would be a more balanced system but until more than just pain/ greifing is counted in as the winning factor War decs will have a missing element.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Agnostos Theos
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-04-15 06:18:50 UTC
Kemal Ataturk wrote:

Why again is wardec in empire good/necessary/wanted/liked?


Because with-out it there is no reason not to have a group of carebear alts that can be rediculously bloated with isk.
With gaining isk and resources becoming closer and closer to 0 risk you reach a point where the only cost to industry is the time investment and as long as more and more bots can do the tedious for you then the net effect is deflation to the point where everyone has so much isk that even the most expensive ships in the game are 'cheap' in terms relative to a players net worth.
A huge part of the draw to eve is it's the only MMO with total risk PvP. When you undock a ship you do so with the full knowlage that it might be destroyed and there is no going back to your last save game.

If I rat in a carrier in 0.0 I need to have scouts in surrounding systems and I need to keep an eye out for wormholes and other ways that someone is going to drop on my carrier. It's common sense that I use alts or my corp in order to minimise my risks.
If you mine or mission run in highsec then there are inteligent ways to minimise your risks.
If you're part of an indi corp with towers all over the place and freighters constantly plowing the space lanes then you're a basically a big pinyata that someone somewhere will want to take a swing at. Instead of crying about being 'unable' to defend yourself against hardened PvP'ers learn to use your industrial base to defend yourself. The hardened 'griefers' attacking you have to pay for their ships too. They obviously found a way to do so.
Personally I don't think the war dec system has gone far enough.
You should not be able to run a corp with-out a 'home base'... a pos or command center somewhere that is your 'home'.
Corp/alliance standings with NPC corps SHOULD play a part. 'friendship' with NPC corps would mean something if you could call on someone you have high standings with to deny station access to your enemies.
Complete noobs are always safe from war-decs in the starter corps... they pay a tax for that safety...
As far as crying over 'noob' corps being griefed by 'merc' or 'griefer' corps... That's EVE !... if someone is a target, because they're bloated with isk and have no protection, because they're full of easy kills to pad a killboard, beacause their CEO is a mouth in local and someone got annoyed enough to shut him up or just because they happened to cross the path of a roleplayer that took offence to their toons name, then they're obviously doing something wrong. Find a corp that can offer you protection and inteligent ideas about how to safely play the way you want to enjoy the game. There are always options, find them.

Love them or hate them, personally I hate the bastards (in game... long time reader of SA actually), goonswarm proved that a pack of complete noobs could band together and become the most powerful entity in the game. If YOU can't emulate that example then it's about time you realised that it's not a limitation of the game mechanics but one of your own abilities and dedication.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2012-04-15 08:49:12 UTC
Kemal Ataturk wrote:
Agnostos Theos wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Yes, band together for protection, because being escorted by 200 batlteships can prevent you from being alphaed in 10 seconds by half a dozen destroyers... oh wait. Roll



But an indi corp that made and supplied thrashers to their 'friends' couldn't possible gain an advantage out of clearing an area of competition ?!?
And of course their gang of friendly thrashers wouldn't dream of acting as an early warning system if there was another group of thrashers bouncing the belts ?

Amazing how uncommon, common sense can be isn't it !

EDIT: I can't type :-(



Why again is wardec in empire good/necessary/wanted/liked?


For the same reason I can't just buy anything I want at NPC price if I don't like the ones you are selling your products at.

Wardecs are a "problem" now because the wardec system is too broken to be effective. If it actually worked, you could counter a wardec with your ISK by hiring player mercenaries to fight for you. But because it's so broken, there's no ecosystem to support such organisations; the only groups that suffer from wardecs are those too ignorant to use the cheap game-mechanics way to evade it altogether. And if, by some miracle, an organised, aware corp gets wardeced and doesn't simply reform to evade it, and they did manage to hire some reputable, competent mercs, the same broken, easily evadable wardec system means that it would still be pointless because the aggressor corp can use those SAME CHEAP MECHANICS to evade retaliation.

So there are no merc corps who find it worthwhile cultivating an "A-team" reputation as the guys you call when you're in trouble. All the empire wardeccers that remain have devolved into harrassing noobs because that's all that's left.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#26 - 2012-04-15 13:30:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kemal Ataturk wrote:
Agnostos Theos wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Yes, band together for protection, because being escorted by 200 batlteships can prevent you from being alphaed in 10 seconds by half a dozen destroyers... oh wait. Roll



But an indi corp that made and supplied thrashers to their 'friends' couldn't possible gain an advantage out of clearing an area of competition ?!?
And of course their gang of friendly thrashers wouldn't dream of acting as an early warning system if there was another group of thrashers bouncing the belts ?

Amazing how uncommon, common sense can be isn't it !

EDIT: I can't type :-(



Why again is wardec in empire good/necessary/wanted/liked?


For the same reason I can't just buy anything I want at NPC price if I don't like the ones you are selling your products at.

Wardecs are a "problem" now because the wardec system is too broken to be effective. If it actually worked, you could counter a wardec with your ISK by hiring player mercenaries to fight for you. But because it's so broken, there's no ecosystem to support such organisations; the only groups that suffer from wardecs are those too ignorant to use the cheap game-mechanics way to evade it altogether. And if, by some miracle, an organised, aware corp gets wardeced and doesn't simply reform to evade it, and they did manage to hire some reputable, competent mercs, the same broken, easily evadable wardec system means that it would still be pointless because the aggressor corp can use those SAME CHEAP MECHANICS to evade retaliation.

So there are no merc corps who find it worthwhile cultivating an "A-team" reputation as the guys you call when you're in trouble. All the empire wardeccers that remain have devolved into harrassing noobs because that's all that's left.


Well, EVE mechanics concerning the consequences of PvP are completely broken. Wardecs are broken, and bounty hunting is broken too.Roll
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2012-04-15 14:56:01 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Well, EVE mechanics concerning the consequences of PvP are completely broken. Wardecs are broken, and bounty hunting is broken too.Roll


No argument from me on either of those assertions. Maybe this year is the year that CCP will fix bounty hunting... as for wardecs - we'll see what they come up with, I guess?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#28 - 2012-04-15 17:00:25 UTC
Agnostos Theos wrote:
Love them or hate them, personally I hate the bastards (in game... long time reader of SA actually), goonswarm proved that a pack of complete noobs could band together and become the most powerful entity in the game. If YOU can't emulate that example then it's about time you realised that it's not a limitation of the game mechanics but one of your own abilities and dedication.

Thankfully we didn't have to play wardec games with BoB. After they dropped alliance that first time...

uh wait, that's when they got the button pushed on them, it wasn't decshielding, or was that an exploit at the time?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#29 - 2012-04-16 09:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius III
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Lots of stuff that doesnt make too much sense, and added "I AM MAD BRO"


See, you guys are missing something. There IS A LEGAL WAY NOT TO BE AFFECTED BY WARS. Just stay in what are referred to as "noob corps" They are immune from wardecs.

I have been in 0rphanage, Privateers and Tears in addition to 20+ other corps and have been involved in hundreds of separate war decs, and I am well qualified to say that what CCP is doing with these changes is actually Fixing the system. Thats right FIXING it. Because as it is now, the current mechanics are broken. You should not be allowed to shed your wars, you should not be immune to wars with the sole exception of being in a 'noob corp' or 'rookie corp'.


Joining a corporation and getting the benefits associated with that also brings risks. Risk of war included. No one is making anyone join a corp, and if you choose to be in a corp, and someone chooses to declare war against you, there are many systems to go hide in, or many ships for sale to actually do something called "fighting back". I wont bore you with the details but basically it involves shooting at someone and possibly destroying their ship or even (GASP) their pod!

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

Excellent idea. What about if I offered something tangible for a vote... say, a PLEX? Do you think that might work?


I heard this is an excellent way to get elected.

Malcanis wrote:


No argument from me on either of those assertions. Maybe this year is the year that CCP will fix bounty hunting... as for wardecs - we'll see what they come up with, I guess?


Bounties are the most backward thing in the game as far as I am concerned. I think they are an embarrassment and should get a fix. I recommend transferable killrights to be used in conjunction with a working bounty system.



Also I resent being called a null sec pilot as I spend more time in Empire than in 0.0 If you don't believe me, I can link you videos of me suicide ganking, running incursions as either Logistics pilot or leading Mothership killing fleets. Turns out I am a poor logi pilot though and most o fthe time when I am in a public incursion fleet, everyone seems to end up dying. But I digress, I am a Hisec pilot, of that there can be little doubt-D3

Hmmm

Agnostos Theos
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-04-16 11:06:38 UTC
Darius III wrote:

Also I resent being called a null sec pilot as I spend more time in Empire than in 0.0 If you don't believe me, I can link you videos of me suicide ganking, running incursions as either Logistics pilot or leading Mothership killing fleets. Turns out I am a poor logi pilot though and most o fthe time when I am in a public incursion fleet, everyone seems to end up dying. But I digress, I am a Hisec pilot, of that there can be little doubt-D3


Funny thing that... every time any FIGL pilot joins an incursion channel it goes mad with warnings not to fleet with us.... aparently we're all terribad logi pilots too :-(

On a more serious note is there anything you can tell us about proposed changes to the bounty hunting system that CCP is actually considering or is it just one of the issues that might eventually get raised in the future ?

I know you lot are keen to have POS's revamped as a top priority but I've not seen any specifics on anything else other then the usual political answer of 'yes this is important to me' almost every time someone asks about something.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#31 - 2012-04-16 13:50:03 UTC
If you want to opt out of combat PVP, then I want to opt out of market PVP.

http://stinkinguplocal.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/save-me-from-non-consentual-pvp/

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2012-04-16 13:57:50 UTC
When Indahmawar Fazmarai and Darius III both agree that a mechanic is broken.....

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#33 - 2012-04-16 20:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
The new wardec proposal made it into Massively, and they aren't going to give CCP SoniClover any cookies:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/15/eve-evolved-fixing-the-wardec-system/

Quote:
While I'm excited for the possibilities of a wardec revamp,I got the distinct impression from the Fanfest stream that CCP doesn't understand how wars are actually used in the game. (...) it can't be good for EVE that the best course of action during a war is to log off and play another game for the duration.


Boom, headshot.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-04-16 22:47:31 UTC
make wardecs next to free and completely unavoidable by getting rid of decshields and npc corps, noob stomping will go away while the highsec wardec corps go after the real isk pinatas.

problem solved
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#35 - 2012-04-17 00:18:09 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
make wardecs next to free and completely unavoidable by getting rid of decshields and npc corps, noob stomping will go away while the highsec wardec corps go after the real isk pinatas.

problem solved


Leave it to someone, who's sole purpose of posting is to talk about those nasty NPC alts and mains, to come up with the most ******** answer.

Wardecs need a purpose. They need a goal which requires to get completed. Thos who are member of a Corporation when it goes active carry the wardec on their person if they decide to leave the corp while the wardec isn't completed yet.
Make the time till wardec goes active just a tad longer so people can decide to leave the corp or make the option to leave the corp when decced a tad shorter. That way those who remain in the corp are flagged as legal targets.

If a certain percentage starts to hop from the corp then the corporation will become a cheaper target for a next wardec. This carries on per dec on the corp and thus making it cheaper and cheaper to dec them if they decide to make it a shell company when decced.
Also something to place on CEO's or directors of that corp. Since if you decide not even to defend your property there should be some form of repurcussion for those in control of it.
This will make people think a bit more before creating a corporation.

There should also be certain goals set by the corporation or alliance that declares the war. A certain % must be achieved or else they lose something.
Corporations or alliances that get wardecced can get temporatu mercs on their payroll. Some form of contract to bind them to the corporation or alliance for the duration of the war or a set amount of time.
Certain goals must be met etc.

Wardeccing corporations or alliances can also hire in mercenaries with a similar contracting system.

Ultimatly to begin or defend in a war should require some sort of commitment. Even if it's only by those in charge of the corporation or alliance.
Failure to accomplish a set percentage of the goal is marked as failed and as such carries a penalty.

Options to surrender in place by bribery, trade or other forms of negotiations which also can require a form of contract to be agreed upon by both sides.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#36 - 2012-04-17 04:25:02 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
make wardecs next to free and completely unavoidable by getting rid of decshields and npc corps, noob stomping will go away while the highsec wardec corps go after the real isk pinatas.

problem solved



Yup it's all the arbitrary rules and opt outs that make the whole thing so convoluted in the first place. The cost of war ought to be in waging it, the idea of having ISK payments as a barrier to declaring war is pretty absurd, so too is the limitation on number of wars. ..And yes NPC corps create way more problems than benefits. Unless CCP is really going to integrate meaningful lore and NPC politics/wars into NPC corps I really don't see any point in keeping them.
roboto212
EVE University
Ivy League
#37 - 2012-04-17 06:00:28 UTC
shameless plea for people to read my thread about modifications to the new war dec system
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#38 - 2012-04-17 06:18:56 UTC
roboto212 wrote:
shameless plea for people to read my thread about modifications to the new war dec system


Unfortunately I already did that.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#39 - 2012-04-17 14:03:16 UTC
Xorv wrote:

Yup it's all the arbitrary rules and opt outs that make the whole thing so convoluted in the first place. The cost of war ought to be in waging it, the idea of having ISK payments as a barrier to declaring war is pretty absurd, so too is the limitation on number of wars. ..And yes NPC corps create way more problems than benefits. Unless CCP is really going to integrate meaningful lore and NPC politics/wars into NPC corps I really don't see any point in keeping them.


So what do you fight over in hi-sec?

ISK-making

Either denying ratting income, or mining income, or incursion income, or blowing up ships, denying access to trade hubs, removing a POS tower (which is an ISK-making activity in hi-sec), etc.. Other then denying access to systems or removal of POS towers, there's no territory to be fought over in empire space.

The current war-dec costs are a joke because they are so cheap and income potential in the entire game has gotten so large. So 3M/50M is definitely "too cheap". On the flip side, a price tag of 5B/wk is obviously too large. Somewhere between those two extremes is a happy medium for the privilege of buying off CONCORD for a week.

Personally, I peg that number at somewhere between 200M for a "cheap" dec and 1B for a max-cost dec. It's cheap enough that you can do it if you really want to, but not so cheap that you're going to do it just because you have a few spare million ISK laying around. When you force the attacker to pony up something like 200M ISK/wk, they're more likely to go into the wardec with a plan of how to bring the most pain for their buck. With a 3M/wk fee, the attacker can just say "meh" and not bother to prosecute if it goes against them.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2012-04-17 21:29:23 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The new wardec proposal made it into Massively, and they aren't going to give CCP SoniClover any cookies:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/15/eve-evolved-fixing-the-wardec-system/

Quote:
While I'm excited for the possibilities of a wardec revamp,I got the distinct impression from the Fanfest stream that CCP doesn't understand how wars are actually used in the game. (...) it can't be good for EVE that the best course of action during a war is to log off and play another game for the duration.


Boom, headshot.

So what they're saying is that we should include a way to force defenders to be logged in. TO THE CSM FORUMS!

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

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