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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Logistics
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Antonio Medichi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-04-08 16:37:08 UTC
During my very brief trip to null, most of my alliance's roams (a different alliance than EXM) were shield BC gangs, comprised of drakes, canes, tackle, and scimitars for logistics. However , I also know that other alliances have had great success with armor BS gangs, and guardians on logi. My question is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each form, and ultimately in a fight which form would offer an edge, although I am aware that this difference isn't the deciding factor in most small gang fights.
Noisrevbus
#2 - 2012-04-08 17:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
The paired ships/setups have a higher raw transfer output, are not as susceptible to cap-warfare and usually devote less slots to support, that result in slightly better base tanks making them ideal for brawling tactics.

The standalone ships/setups do not rely on pairwork (or other group-up chains) which allow you to move more freely and utilize your mobility, as well as your fleet-mates', mobility as mitigation (and EW-evasion). That make them ideal for kiting and sniping tactics.

Since armor is generally preferred for typical heavy-buffer, sig-brawling tactics and shield is generally preferred for typical snipe-kite, control-gank tactics the two most common ships are the Scimi (standalone) and Guardian (chain). That doesn't mean the Basilisk or Oneiros can't be useful though, it's just that they tend to be more useful in less popular, out-of-the-box tactics and gang compositions (armor that rely more on mobility, and shield that rely more on stability).

I hope this gives you a sufficient overview of the logistics and their use. It's just in broad general terms.
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-04-08 22:03:05 UTC
Reasons why people use the Scimi over Basi: Speed. Most Shield fleets are based around mobility, which is something the scimitar excels at, and the basilisk fails at. With bonuses, an AB scimitar can usually push 1 km/sec, and with a MWD its around 2.5 km/sec. This allows scimi's to dictate their range in order to mitigate damage. The basi has a larger tank and rep capabilities, but it is a lot slower and has a larger sig.

As for the Guardian / Onerios: Guardian is far superior in almost every way. Onerios needs logi 5 in order to fly any sort of reasonable fit. while a Guardian does not. Making an Onerios fit that is cap stable, and has a significant buffer is very hard without Logi 5, you either need to use Cap Boosters or sacrifice your tank in some way. A guardian has no problems fitting a 1600 plate, AB, ECCM, 3 Large Armor Reps, 1 Medium Armor Rep, and 2 Large Energy transfers. It has everything wanted in an armor logi, Very low sig, massive rep capabilities, cap stability, ECCM, AND a very good tank to top it off. Onerios simply cannot do all of that, it needs to sacrifice one element to be effective, whereas the Guardian does not.
StarVoyager Odunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-08 23:02:22 UTC
Revii Lagoon wrote:
Reasons why people use the Scimi over Basi: Speed. Most Shield fleets are based around mobility, which is something the scimitar excels at, and the basilisk fails at. With bonuses, an AB scimitar can usually push 1 km/sec, and with a MWD its around 2.5 km/sec. This allows scimi's to dictate their range in order to mitigate damage. The basi has a larger tank and rep capabilities, but it is a lot slower and has a larger sig.

As for the Guardian / Onerios: Guardian is far superior in almost every way. Onerios needs logi 5 in order to fly any sort of reasonable fit. while a Guardian does not. Making an Onerios fit that is cap stable, and has a significant buffer is very hard without Logi 5, you either need to use Cap Boosters or sacrifice your tank in some way. A guardian has no problems fitting a 1600 plate, AB, ECCM, 3 Large Armor Reps, 1 Medium Armor Rep, and 2 Large Energy transfers. It has everything wanted in an armor logi, Very low sig, massive rep capabilities, cap stability, ECCM, AND a very good tank to top it off. Onerios simply cannot do all of that, it needs to sacrifice one element to be effective, whereas the Guardian does not.


You can fit 4 large remote reps, 2 xfers, ECCM, 1600 Ab and have 50k EHP if you use T2 Ancillaries.

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Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-04-10 06:19:21 UTC
If I never have to hear, "xxx is jammed, chain to yyy... no, yyyy is jammed too, chain off zzz...." again, it will be too soon.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#6 - 2012-04-10 12:19:01 UTC
StarVoyager Odunen wrote:
Revii Lagoon wrote:
Reasons why people use the Scimi over Basi: Speed. Most Shield fleets are based around mobility, which is something the scimitar excels at, and the basilisk fails at. With bonuses, an AB scimitar can usually push 1 km/sec, and with a MWD its around 2.5 km/sec. This allows scimi's to dictate their range in order to mitigate damage. The basi has a larger tank and rep capabilities, but it is a lot slower and has a larger sig.

As for the Guardian / Onerios: Guardian is far superior in almost every way. Onerios needs logi 5 in order to fly any sort of reasonable fit. while a Guardian does not. Making an Onerios fit that is cap stable, and has a significant buffer is very hard without Logi 5, you either need to use Cap Boosters or sacrifice your tank in some way. A guardian has no problems fitting a 1600 plate, AB, ECCM, 3 Large Armor Reps, 1 Medium Armor Rep, and 2 Large Energy transfers. It has everything wanted in an armor logi, Very low sig, massive rep capabilities, cap stability, ECCM, AND a very good tank to top it off. Onerios simply cannot do all of that, it needs to sacrifice one element to be effective, whereas the Guardian does not.


You can fit 4 large remote reps, 2 xfers, ECCM, 1600 Ab and have 50k EHP if you use T2 Ancillaries.



You fit T2 Ancilliaries on your Logis o.0
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#7 - 2012-04-10 17:38:33 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:



You fit T2 Ancilliaries on your Logis o.0


I dont see why not
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-11 02:29:02 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
I dont see why not


Expensive as ****.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#9 - 2012-04-11 15:13:36 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
I dont see why not


Expensive as ****.


cheap as ****...
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#10 - 2012-04-11 16:46:43 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Expensive as ****.

At 200 mil for a pair, if they save a single battleship you've justified the cost.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-04-12 06:00:09 UTC
Or I could take that money and buy another Guardian, which would be even more reps.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#12 - 2012-04-12 08:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: l0rd carlos
Shield BC gangs are often very fast. They can kite the enemy and try to stay out of scram and web range.
If the battleflield gets too hot, for example a cyno opens, the shield gang can get away.

An armor gang often has better tank, but is also more stationary.
__
Edit: If you want to watch how good a nano/shield gang can do, then there are some good videos out there.
Nanofiber Internal structure from Podla/Hydra
pew pew from the hatchery
mwd=nano from some hydra guy. <-- i get a stiffy everytime i watch the first part.

and many many more.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-04-12 08:52:28 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Or I could take that money and buy another Guardian, which would be even more reps.

But you need another guy flying it...

T2 Rigs are more or less standard for small-Fleet PvP AB-Guardians (due to better repps or better Tank)

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#14 - 2012-04-14 12:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Or I could take that money and buy another Guardian, which would be even more reps.

Having a spare guardian doesn't mean having more reps. We're talking about making the logi you have on the field even better and more durable. 200 mill won't buy you a pilot to fly that guardian.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.