Science & Industry

you said that crap 100 times now, and we've proven you 100 times that its just wrong. Even if you would remove all T2 BPO`s not every item can be made with profit. Your looking for a ******-prove game that eve clearly is not supposed to be.

Mostly ? Very busy at my day-job.

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The maelstrom of arguments so far basically boil down to something very simple.

On one hand, producing from a T2 BPO is always cheaper, but has a much higher initial cost (which can be recovered, sometimes lower, sometimes higher) and has a maximum production volume.
For items with low demand, the max production volume from T2 BPOs is sufficient to satisfy the entire demand, so invention can't compete because equilibrium price is below invention breakeven (and many times, barely above T2 BPO breakeven).
However, the overall total value of those items is relatively small, even if by pure item TYPE count they represent the majority.

On the other hand, production from an invented T2 BPC is always more expensive, but has a very small initial cost (recurring and non-recoverable) and is as good as unlimited as far as production volume of any particular item goes.
For items with high demand, T2 BPOs can't possibly match demand, so price rises, quickly surpassing invention breakeven, so demand for invented items starts existing. The more popular the item, the higher the demand, the more slice of the pie inventors have.
The overall total value of those items is very high, even if by total item count they're a minority.
T2 BPO owners *COULD* significantly undercut inventors if they wanted, but it would generally be a very stupid thing to do, because it would further decrease the already pathetically small RoI of the T2 BPOs.

Arguments about not being able to get new ones or items without any are not really all that relevant, barely more than demagoguery and rhetoric.

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To me, this looks like a decent compromise (far from perfect, but given the time evolution and time's irreversibility, doubtful to have any overall better alternatives).
You can always get what you want, and stuff only a few people want is dirt cheap ; T2 BPO profit is capped by whatever the added invention costs are for the corresponding item, as opposed to it being it free to soar, while RoI remains very low ; inventors can quickly switch to whatever the "item of the month" might be, whereas T2 BPO owners have a very high inertia (due to difficulty of switching T2 BPO type, having to go through long-duration sale/purchase periods and find willing counterparts).
Also, CCP has specifically "pre-nerfed" invention heavily, then slightly buffed it from time to time. If they wanted to make invention more on par with T2 BPO production, they would have had ample occasions to buff it even further, BUT THEY DID NOT, because they don't feel like the current situation is a problem. This really says most of what needs to be said.

To Brewlar Kuvakei, it looks like "UNACCEPTABLE levels of unfairness" because he can't accept radically different production chain methods for the exact same items, and because he feels too many of the current owners (for HIS taste) have obtained the BPOs as too much of a good deal (in his opinion), so he is perfectly willing to sacrifice the older alternative production method in pursuit of that illusory fairness, and damn the consequences.
He used to agree that buffing invention to further limit the advantage of BPOs would be a decent middle ground concession, but he dropped that much more CCP-palatable alternative a short while after. I can't help but suspect that he doesn't actually want to achieve anything practically achievable anymore, but is mainly just upset by the situation and is on a crusade for the Holy Grail.

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And that's pretty much it, in a nutshell.
--T.

funny that you only "allow" Akita T to be the only T2 BPO supporter here, even tho he is the one who is killing your points brutally by numbers, every time.


when you talk about ROI, you have to take current market numbers, using 8 year old values to compare them to current return is just wrong/stupid


you clearly dont know what ROI means, please do your Homework.



how many T3 items are existing at them moment? are T3 ships made by invention? is it maybe something total different?

oh now your using CCP`s decisions for your arguments? hmm...on the other hand, why havent they revomed the BPO`s yet?


your told to be constructive, paroles are not.

Time is, as far as we know, irreversible.
Some distant past value of T2 BPOs is no longer relevant.
The only value that matters now is CURRENT value.

Holding on to a T2 BPO today instead of selling it is interchangeable with having the necessary ISK for it but not purchasing one.


The players were not chosen by any CCP staff manually, the overwhelming vast majority was chosen by a random number generator operating an automated lottery.
The vast majority of the items were not worth nearly that many billions of ISK at that time anyway, and people that approved the exchange of RP (in amounts which were nowhere near as low as you seem to keep on claiming) for offered T2 BPOs also lost out on an extremely profitable opportunity some time later, when RPs were extremely valuable, shortly after invention was introduced.

All NPC drops, all mining, most of PI, everything adds items to the game without removing their corresponding ISK value from the game, so that's no good argument.
People today STILL RECEIVE other items that can be worth many billions of ISK on a daily basis via another random number generator picking NPC loot drops, so that's not a good argument either, and I don't ever hear you complaining about that anyway.


Invention is a more attractive alternative in case T2 BPOs never existed.
That could be achieved on the Serenity cluster (and for newly introduced items after invention started on TQ), but, again, since time is irreversible for humans on this planet at this time (and may forever be irreversible), it is impossible to do for the Tranquility cluster for the older T2 items.

Removing existing T2 BPOs now does not change the past, it only alters the present and future, and it's a BAD choice for many reasons already heavily explained in this thread.
So, yes, if somehow CCP could actually go back in time and introduce invention instead of the T2 BPO lottery, then heck yeah, I would be the strongest supporter for such a thing.
Too bad time travel does not exist, eh ?

The least damaging POSSIBLE alternative would be for CCP to bring invention manufacture cost closer to T2 BPO manufacture cost, BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO EVEN THAT MUCH to any radical extent.
They did however slightly nudge invented item production costs closer to T2 BPO enabled item production costs, but only very slightly, and very infrequently.

You use CCP's choice to not seed any additional BPOs for new T2/T3 items as a tenuous argument that supposedly solidifies your position, but at the same time, you refuse to accept that their refusal to boost invention radically is a clear and crippling blow to your argument.
That's hypocritical, at best.


Invention exists. Invention is used. It may not be used to the EXTENT you might like, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists and it is used.
T2 BPOs are an alternative production method to invention, a choice that can be made for each individual item.
REMOVING T2 BPOs reduces complexity by removing OPTIONS, it does not increase it.
You're arguing against your own position here.


IP laws are real too.
T2 BPOs are basically limited production franchises to existing NPC patents.
If you want to make EVE more real, you would either remove invention altogether, or at least make all people engaged in invention and selling of invented items OUTLAWS (counterfeiters), while not touching T2 BPOs at all.
You would however also need to make it possible for players to "invent" completely different classes of items (at insane costs to begin with, and exponentially increasing for minor improvements), for which THEY would be granted a patent for which they could sell as many franchises they want to to other players, but that's a no go for (what should be pretty obvious) gameplay balance reasons.


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P.S.
This is all the time I can spare today.
You may be wise to listen to the rest of the people attempting to talk to you, they have quite decent explanations, even if their presentation is less polite or sometimes less extensive.
Not being willing to even consider anybody else's explanations except mine is a low move.

T2 BPOs are not ideal, but they are also not a problem. I'm not going to bother rehashing what all of the rational people in this thread have said.

That being said, I would support their removal if:

a) CCP completely revamped research
b) CCP also removed all T1 BPOs
and
c) They could figure out how to do this without making industry grind to a halt / all the industrialists emoragequit.

I've disliked NPC seeded goods since back in the day, when everyone stockpiled minerals to sell at server uptime to NPC orders. I'd much rather CCP just scrap BPs altogether and move to a system where you build (a potentially limited number of) factories, you do R&D to configure said factories and then effectively have a BPO you can use to make stuff, sell to a pure manufacturer, tear down to configure it to make something else, or maybe use to make some BPC-like schematics that budding manufacturers can just run through an NPC station's 3d printer. 

I do not, however, believe that this is possible in in my lifetime. Particularly part C.

Your taking the Logical approach, this is usually wrong, trying to make logic of people's doings and undoings in a world with little to zip law, isnt the right way to go, Perhaps im wrong?

Nope Kara your spot on. T2BPO was a massive mistake that needs rectifying. I myself am contemplating a move to Serenity server where T2BPO's do not exist because there is one thing I do agree with T2BPO supporters and owners is that I doubt they are going to be fixed any time soon.

Very professional post, Oversimplified, almost compelling, still doesn't provide any kind of answer to a problem.

What do I mean? I believe I was pretty clear as to what I meant, in plain English.
I dont know if they will ever remove T2 BPO's but the fact still stands, no new T2 or T3 BPO's are being introduced.

The reason CCP has not removed them is because it's not the t2BPO owners fault that they were gifted the item. They feel that removing them will cause a lot of forum crying and maybe even some unsubs. CCP should take the forum whine and the unsubs which will quickly be replenished by new players, higher player retention and of course new subs for invention alts.

Is there a problem?