Science & Industry

Actually, those exact questions can already be answered quite easily in accordance to reality by anybody with more than a passing acquaintance with invention or with a halfway decent knowledge of the EVE economy.
Besides, most of them should be interpreted as phrased regarding opinions, not questions regarding facts (we already know the facts, we want to see where the misperceptions originate from, which inaccurate opinions).

And that's precisely how such a poll would help, see what's the main reason for the disconnect between reality and public opinion, or even if the predominant public opinion really diverges from reality as much as claimed by T2 BPO opponents.

There you go:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789
Also rephrased to be more clear that it's about opinions :)

Whoever wants T2 BPOs gone is probably going to want them gone either way, but at least this way they would expose what exactly they consider to be their main failing and what their opinion of the consequences would be.
The consequences of a complete T2 BPO removal are crystal-clear to foresee, unless a whole lot of other changes are also made. If one would only remove T2 BPOs without changing anything else, some T2 items would become much more expensive, while all T2 items would become a bit more expensive, and there would be a bit more inventors around, but they generally would not end up earning a significantly different profit.

all these questions are actually nothing more then a starting over for the debate allready made in countless threads / posts on the subject...

the only question that really matters is:

What about the T2BPOs? (should stay / should go / dont care)

depending on the poll outcome further steps could follow...
- if the no of votes would be meaningless (few ks representing an unsignificant fraction of the community) that would be a fail and the whole debate should have its end...
- if enough votes to count would be casted then:
* further survey(s) may be launched in order to determine the details...
* ccp would eventually take notice and look deeper into the matter...

as for the

unfortunatelly (bold is very "on purpose") , just like IRL, the "democracy" mean 1 vote per person, no matter wheat or chaff... in eve should be even worse with every account worth the same 15$/month...

By one person. Just because one guy spams the forums with threads about his pet whine doesn't mean that a lot of people care.

thats exactlly why i said a more comprehensive "survey" would be useless...

and thats exactlly why i ended my above reply with "* ccp would eventually take notice and look deeper into the matter..."

altho that reff. to 15$/month was also on purpose... if enough 15/month would spoke (one way or another) their minds, any "dictator" may find it dificult to ignore the outcome... and also any RubyPorto's "one guy" aswell...



^^^^ she was quicker...

The same result has got a german player. He made an analysis on the markeds data and posted it here

https://www.eveger.de/forum/showthread.php?38090-T2-BPOs-und-Invention-eine-Stichprobenanalyse

T2-BPOs generating a relative low output, so the impact is little to none. Because of the low output the profit in relation to the marketsvalue is to low. A T2-BPO is usually a bad investment.

I ignored your replies for good reason, yet that reason isn't something I'm going to commit to writing; for now I ask you to accept that instinct told me not to reply until now. Your replies didn't fall on deaf ears, but my viewpoint is unchanged even though I don't disagree with the points you make. I was hoping I had the logs from my old PC in the noob help channel where a guy from a major alliance was advertising T2BPOs, because those logs would have demonstrated my position a little better. I've still two hard drives to check yet though.

Anyway - as a noob, isk is meaningless. With isk I can buy stuff I can't fit, buy ships I can't fly or trade for even more isk that I have no use for. If I'm desperate for isk, I can even buy it from CCP - isk is not an issue. "Industry types" appear to think that the problem that noobs like me have with T2BPOs is the profit made from said T2BPO is more than possible than done with invented T2BPCs - that isn't the problem. The issue is that T2BPOs have a guaranteed result, unlike officer drops or any other aspect of the game that has the most valuable result - a T2BPO delivers on time, every time, ad infinitum. Yes, CCP have attempted to address the balance, but it still appears to be really unbalanced. Skewed by the outlook of a noob: war with an alliance with access to T2BPOs is pointless because they have infinite supply at less than material cost (with experience I know this not to be exactly true, yet the perception of many noob players is that it is.) From that perspective, T2BPOs are perpetual motion, pay to win item that serve no good purpose in an MMO whilst restricted to only those with the real life or in game money to purchase them (and as time goes by, I expect they'll end up in the same alliance's posession which I believe was the reason they were stopped from being seeded in the first place.) What T2BPOs earn is insignificant and not even remotely important in comparison.

Bare in mind, when I started playing EVE I chose to be an Caldari Achura inventor - I have looked into the issue before more than I'd like to (I thought inventing would be a noble profession.) No matter the evidence though, it still doesn't change the fact that I think I can never compete with a guy with more than one T2BPO unless I specialise in one thing, and won't know for sure until I've trained the appropriate skills (and there's no way in hell I'm waiting a year to find out.) I can't trust your opinions because you're posting in the industry forum - the forum where everyone tries to get everyone else out of their market by any means; it's Mos Eisley in here.

As you say though, CCP are going to do something with invention - that much is clear; I can only hope that that means invention will at least appear more balanced and viable to noobs in future because if a player quits because of a perceived imbalance issue they're unlikely they'll return (I only came back because it didn't cost me anything to do so.) It doesn't matter what we say here though because the vast majority of EVE players don't do this forum.

There may be those who think I'm being a drama queen about this issue, but I've seen enough people leave this game because of T2BPOs limited availability. My experience of EVE is that the game IS dying too - there are less people playing than when I quit last year, there are people still playing from last year with a lot more alts; statistics are not going to change my experience (or my experience of statistics being a load of bull.)

Poll won't work because the guys I know with T2BPOs have a lot of alts; I can only assume that all T2BPO owners are the same.

Anyway, fly safe.

Mostly not really disagree with you that much either on the principle, but the interpretation is way off, it's almost as if we're talking about different issues altogether... so I only really want to clarify some of the points, for posterity's sake...


ISK can also buy a character that can fly and fit just about anything you like.
Also, technically, you never buy ISK directly from CCP - you buy GTC/PLEX from CCP and exchange it for ISK to another player.


If invention was not chance-based at all, so always a guaranteed result (with result based on inputs and skills), that would in your opinion minimize the perceived problem or not ?


Yet in the grand scheme of things, the only things that really matter are politics (social connections) and NAV (in ISK), I hope you can agree with that now that you're not a completely new player anymore.
From that perspective, any other factors except raw ISK profitability of T2 BPOs are what's really insignificant.


Other than testing out invention on SiSi and breaking it down mathematically back when it was introduced, I haven't had much to do with manufacture of any kind, be it via BPO or invented BPC. I didn't need to.
Been playing for over 6 years now, and in the past 3 years, I have made almost all of my ISK (estimated current NAV ~450 bil ISK, from less than 1/10 of that 3 years ago) through loans, investments, forecasting and subsequent trades - no direct hand in either manufacture nor invention, but enough knowledge to determine what's worth buying and what's worth selling - and MINIMAL ingame time spent clicking stuff (I'd often not even touch my market orders for days, even weeks).
So, yeah, sure, you CAN'T beat a T2 BPO owner at manufacturing the items he has T2 BPOs for, but you certainly can beat him (quite drastically too) in terms of earned ISK (from an even lower starting point), and with even less INGAME effort than his.


The results of that poll without any decent framing would be easy so to guesstimate as to make even posting that poll pointless : there are far too few T2 BPO owners (barely around 1% of the general population) for their opinion to even register, most people do not have a proper understanding of what T2 BPOs are actually good for and what the consequence of their existence really is, plus people generally don't like admitting they don't know/understand stuff, and humans in general are fairly jealous and petty when it comes to wealth.
The obvious outcome would be that only the few people that really know T2 BPOs are not a problem would vote "should stay" (and I estimate that portion to only be 10%-20% of the general public, at best), more than half would vote "should go" even if what they really mean is "I don't know enough" or even "I only slightly care to see them gone, but if those are my choices, sure, make them go away, why not, I don't have one anyway".
You don't need a poll to tell you THAT.
What you do need a poll for is to tell you what TYPES of people want T2 BPOs gone, and what is their REASON for wanting them gone, so that CCP can then mitigate the most "popular" dislike reason via better gameplay or blog education.

Guess what, EvE is hard and usually doesn't come with tools to make things simple.

The forums do not have a tool to create clickable automatic polls. Akita's poll is how polls are generally done. If you want to change that, make and F&I request or contact your local CSM.

Anyway, Akita told you exactly why a one question poll is pretty stupid and meaningless on this topic, so I wont repeat her.


As for claiming that's not a poll, Akita's poll pretty well mimics the format of modern public opinion polls:
"An opinion poll, sometimes simply referred to as a poll, is a survey of public opinion from a particular sample. Opinion polls are usually designed to represent the opinions of a population by conducting a series of questions and then extrapolating generalities in ratio or within confidence intervals."-Wikipedia

Series of Questions? Check.
Ready to Extrapolate into Generalities? Check.