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Turret dps formula, which quality hit does it correspond with?
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Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1 - 2012-04-06 06:40:00 UTC
I posted this in another thread yesterday:

"On the subject but a bit further out: I have seen a gazillion graphs about all sorts of turret comparisons in the old forums (remember naughty boy?) but I do not rememebr the authoriative answer to this:

For the turret to achieve the same dps as the equasion: ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets / rof (what is usually referred to as dps or eft dps) does it need to hit: "hits" "aims weel" or " excellent shot"? (I know glancing blows and wreckings are out of the question of course).

Anyone reliably knows the correct answer?"

but I had no replies and since I am really curious decided to make it a bit more visible.

Any takers? Big smile
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2 - 2012-04-06 08:46:37 UTC
You actually answer two questions : one about the EFT DPS, and one about the quality of hits.

Turrets damage is a random value between 50% and 150% of ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets
DPS is the average value of these drawns divided by rof, considering wrecking hits ; so dps is something like (103 or 102 % x ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets)/rof (I don't like statistics and am lazy to check the numbers ; look for "turret damage" in evelopedia).
I don't know if EFT consider the wrecking hits or not, but difference is meaningless, moreover for comparisons.

The quality of hit qualifier only tell you the range where you hit felt in the 50%-150%*"turrets base damage" (turrets base damage being ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets).
I don't know all the qualifier nor I really know if they are uniformly distributed, but I guess they are. Wrecking hit is a 300% damage hit and is independant of your chances to hit. My bet is that "excellent shot" is in the 125-150% range, "well aimed is in the "100-125% range, "hits" is in the 75-100% range, and "barely scratch" is in the 50-75% range.
If I forgot a qualifier, insert it in its place, and reduce ranges accordingly for everyone to have the same.
Obviously, "completely miss" is a miss of course.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#3 - 2012-04-06 09:25:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You actually answer two questions : one about the EFT DPS, and one about the quality of hits.

Turrets damage is a random value between 50% and 150% of ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets
DPS is the average value of these drawns divided by rof, considering wrecking hits ; so dps is something like (103 or 102 % x ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets)/rof (I don't like statistics and am lazy to check the numbers ; look for "turret damage" in evelopedia).
I don't know if EFT consider the wrecking hits or not, but difference is meaningless, moreover for comparisons.

The quality of hit qualifier only tell you the range where you hit felt in the 50%-150%*"turrets base damage" (turrets base damage being ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets).
I don't know all the qualifier nor I really know if they are uniformly distributed, but I guess they are. Wrecking hit is a 300% damage hit and is independant of your chances to hit. My bet is that "excellent shot" is in the 125-150% range, "well aimed is in the "100-125% range, "hits" is in the 75-100% range, and "barely scratch" is in the 50-75% range.
If I forgot a qualifier, insert it in its place, and reduce ranges accordingly for everyone to have the same.
Obviously, "completely miss" is a miss of course.


Thank you all this is very useful. Specifically what I was looking for was which hit is the "100% damage" and from your post it seems to be "hits". This would seem to indicate that turret actual dps in top conditions (say shooting a structure or a BS with frig guns standing still next to it say) would be a lot higher than eft dps (which is the same as the peper dps from the formula I gave you).

Of course we have a practical feel of what turret dps is like so the question is a bit theoretical but if your answer is the correct one (I have a vague memory that "aims well" being 100% also) it would seem that in the appropriate conditions a turret ship could deliver say 20-30% more dps than eft dps. I like this (hehe) but I somehow somewhere think it is the wrong answer and that 100% paper dps is the ceiling (excluding only wrecking hits). Anyway I ll go check the article you suggested... thanks again.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4 - 2012-04-06 09:30:35 UTC
Ok I wont pretende I actually undertstood that but from what I can discern, this:

"A 50% hit chance would mean 1% wrecking hits, and 49% normal hits evenly distributed in the damage multiplier range of 0.51 to 1.00, for a final DPS of a bit under 40% instead of the "expected" ~52% DPS."

means that to get the paper/eft dps from turrets you would need to be in a condition that you get almost only "excellent" hits.

Therefore the maximum damage is something like 102% if you only got excellents which in practice means that in top conditions (immovable frig shooting at immovable BS within frig guns' optimal) you d still only get some 95% ish of pape dps and not 120% ish of paper dps...

Oh well...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5 - 2012-04-06 22:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
You're wrong. Statistics are pretty brainfucking, but with 100% hit chance, you will have 102% dps. But it's too late for me for a proof; and statistics are not my friends.

Infact, dps follow the curve of the graph you can see at the bottom of the evelopedia page.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-04-06 23:09:26 UTC
Crellion wrote:
I posted this in another thread yesterday:

"On the subject but a bit further out: I have seen a gazillion graphs about all sorts of turret comparisons in the old forums (remember naughty boy?) but I do not rememebr the authoriative answer to this:

For the turret to achieve the same dps as the equasion: ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets / rof (what is usually referred to as dps or eft dps) does it need to hit: "hits" "aims weel" or " excellent shot"? (I know glancing blows and wreckings are out of the question of course).

Anyone reliably knows the correct answer?"

but I had no replies and since I am really curious decided to make it a bit more visible.

Any takers? Big smile


It takes the average of what you can expect. IIRC the initial research into hit quality suggested that the best hit quality attainable decreased the worse your hit chance was. That is to say that you wouldn't be seeing "excellent" hits after a certain point in the to-hit formula - though you'd still see "wrecking" shots because they were a separate chance. And at a certain point, the only hits you actually got would be wrecking shots.

At some point CCP messed with the text describing the turret damage formulas, but it was reverified that the expected damage derived from the to-hit and hit quality formulas remained the same.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
stoicfaux
#7 - 2012-04-07 00:38:12 UTC
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

Hit description Random damage modifier
Perfectly 0.490 to 0.500 (special case, 3x the base damage instead)
Barely scratches 0.500 to 0.625
Hits lightly 0.625 to 0.750
Hits 0.750 to 1.000
Well aimed 1.000 to 1.250
Excellent 1.250 to 1.490

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2012-04-07 06:37:10 UTC
Might help: Turret damage
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#9 - 2012-04-09 06:30:24 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

Hit description Random damage modifier
Perfectly 0.490 to 0.500 (special case, 3x the base damage instead)
Barely scratches 0.500 to 0.625
Hits lightly 0.625 to 0.750
Hits 0.750 to 1.000
Well aimed 1.000 to 1.250
Excellent 1.250 to 1.490


I see... by those numbers and years of iddle field research hitting POSs before there were capital ships in ideal conditions a 1k dps Mega actually does anything between 10k and 15k damage in 10 secs... (random examle).

So then it IS possible by striving for optimum conditions to have a turret ship in the duraton of a fight do (to be modest) 20% more than eft dps / ingame fit window dps, is that correct?

(Hey no fears I am NOT asking for a rebalance or anything just trying to explain how turrets feel a bit beefier thann expected in ideal situations).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#10 - 2012-04-09 06:52:15 UTC
Crellion wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

Hit description Random damage modifier
Perfectly 0.490 to 0.500 (special case, 3x the base damage instead)
Barely scratches 0.500 to 0.625
Hits lightly 0.625 to 0.750
Hits 0.750 to 1.000
Well aimed 1.000 to 1.250
Excellent 1.250 to 1.490


I see... by those numbers and years of iddle field research hitting POSs before there were capital ships in ideal conditions a 1k dps Mega actually does anything between 10k and 15k damage in 10 secs... (random examle).

So then it IS possible by striving for optimum conditions to have a turret ship in the duraton of a fight do (to be modest) 20% more than eft dps / ingame fit window dps, is that correct?

(Hey no fears I am NOT asking for a rebalance or anything just trying to explain how turrets feel a bit beefier thann expected in ideal situations).


In a sustained manner? No. In the first few seconds of a fight? Yes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#11 - 2012-04-09 07:31:03 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Crellion wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

Hit description Random damage modifier
Perfectly 0.490 to 0.500 (special case, 3x the base damage instead)
Barely scratches 0.500 to 0.625
Hits lightly 0.625 to 0.750
Hits 0.750 to 1.000
Well aimed 1.000 to 1.250
Excellent 1.250 to 1.490


I see... by those numbers and years of iddle field research hitting POSs before there were capital ships in ideal conditions a 1k dps Mega actually does anything between 10k and 15k damage in 10 secs... (random examle).

So then it IS possible by striving for optimum conditions to have a turret ship in the duraton of a fight do (to be modest) 20% more than eft dps / ingame fit window dps, is that correct?

(Hey no fears I am NOT asking for a rebalance or anything just trying to explain how turrets feel a bit beefier thann expected in ideal situations).


In a sustained manner? No. In the first few seconds of a fight? Yes.

-Liang


Hey Liang pls explain further. If the target is webbed painted scrammed and at ideal distance throughout the fight and the turret ship is 0 speed and plinking away will it do 120% (-ish) of it's eft dps for the duration of the fight or not and why?

I want to be very clear: I now how it feels on TQ I have done it a few thousand times, I only wonder about the math of it. Also my quation is not philosophical I earnestly don't know the answer.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#12 - 2012-04-09 09:24:08 UTC
Crellion wrote:


Hey Liang pls explain further. If the target is webbed painted scrammed and at ideal distance throughout the fight and the turret ship is 0 speed and plinking away will it do 120% (-ish) of it's eft dps for the duration of the fight or not and why?

I want to be very clear: I now how it feels on TQ I have done it a few thousand times, I only wonder about the math of it. Also my quation is not philosophical I earnestly don't know the answer.

No.

In *ideal* conditions, you will do 102% of your turret damage/rof.
EFT *may* already consider this for its dps calculation.
Reason is : with 100% hit chances (perfect conditions, whatever the way you manage to achieve it) mean your damage multiplier is equal to 0.5+X, X being a random value between 0 and 1. Hence, your shots are evenly distributed in the 52%-150% damage range, plus one 300% shot.
Apply now a formula to add all numbers in a row which I never remember ; add the wrecking hit ; divide with you number of shot ; you have your average damage per shot. Divide by rof, you have the dps. And this dps will be around 102% of your (turret damage modifier * ammo damage) / rof.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#13 - 2012-04-09 10:40:25 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Crellion wrote:


Hey Liang pls explain further. If the target is webbed painted scrammed and at ideal distance throughout the fight and the turret ship is 0 speed and plinking away will it do 120% (-ish) of it's eft dps for the duration of the fight or not and why?

I want to be very clear: I now how it feels on TQ I have done it a few thousand times, I only wonder about the math of it. Also my quation is not philosophical I earnestly don't know the answer.

No.

In *ideal* conditions, you will do 102% of your turret damage/rof.
EFT *may* already consider this for its dps calculation.
Reason is : with 100% hit chances (perfect conditions, whatever the way you manage to achieve it) mean your damage multiplier is equal to 0.5+X, X being a random value between 0 and 1. Hence, your shots are evenly distributed in the 52%-150% damage range, plus one 300% shot.
Apply now a formula to add all numbers in a row which I never remember ; add the wrecking hit ; divide with you number of shot ; you have your average damage per shot. Divide by rof, you have the dps. And this dps will be around 102% of your (turret damage modifier * ammo damage) / rof.


Ok you must be right. However read what Stoic Faux posted above. If you take your ship and go simulate this in "ideal conditions" you will see most every hit is "well aimed" or "excellent". Described by Stoic Faux this is 1.0 to 1.49 x damage modifier evenly distributed. Are you saying that in perfect conditions all hits are equally represented and not "most every hit is "well aimed" or "excellent""?
stoicfaux
#14 - 2012-04-09 12:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#Randomness_of_damage
"The damage from turrets always have a random factor in it, this is is built into the game and can't be avoided. Under ideal conditions, when your hit chance is 100%, the damage done by your turrets will be inside an interval of 50% to 150% of your average damage (your targets resistance will reduce the damage done too)."

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#The_random_damage_distribution
"A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, so with a 75% hit chance there can be no excellent hits because they are now turned into misses."


Even with 100% chance to hit (i.e. no tracking or falloff penalties,) you can get everything from 'barely scratches' to 'excellent' with the occasionally 'perfectly' (aka critical hit.)

Seriously, the http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage page has everything you ever wanted to know about tracking. You just need to read it a few times.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#15 - 2012-04-09 13:23:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#Randomness_of_damage
"The damage from turrets always have a random factor in it, this is is built into the game and can't be avoided. Under ideal conditions, when your hit chance is 100%, the damage done by your turrets will be inside an interval of 50% to 150% of your average damage (your targets resistance will reduce the damage done too)."

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#The_random_damage_distribution
"A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, so with a 75% hit chance there can be no excellent hits because they are now turned into misses."


Even with 100% chance to hit (i.e. no tracking or falloff penalties,) you can get everything from 'barely scratches' to 'excellent' with the occasionally 'perfectly' (aka critical hit.)

Seriously, the http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage page has everything you ever wanted to know about tracking. You just need to read it a few times.


tyvm :)

tl;dr = 102% at best right?
stoicfaux
#16 - 2012-04-09 14:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Crellion wrote:
tl;dr = 102% at best right?


3.0*.01 + .99*(.50+1.49)/2 = 1.01505 or 101.5%

edit: Forgot the .99

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2012-04-09 15:54:23 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

In a sustained manner? No. In the first few seconds of a fight? Yes.

-Liang


Hey Liang pls explain further. If the target is webbed painted scrammed and at ideal distance throughout the fight and the turret ship is 0 speed and plinking away will it do 120% (-ish) of it's eft dps for the duration of the fight or not and why?

I want to be very clear: I now how it feels on TQ I have done it a few thousand times, I only wonder about the math of it. Also my quation is not philosophical I earnestly don't know the answer.


I was referring to the effect of alpha - for the first second of a fight an arty tornado puts out 11000 DPS...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#18 - 2012-04-09 17:32:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You actually answer two questions : one about the EFT DPS, and one about the quality of hits.

Turrets damage is a random value between 50% and 150% of ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets
DPS is the average value of these drawns divided by rof, considering wrecking hits ; so dps is something like (103 or 102 % x ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets)/rof (I don't like statistics and am lazy to check the numbers ; look for "turret damage" in evelopedia).
I don't know if EFT consider the wrecking hits or not, but difference is meaningless, moreover for comparisons.

The quality of hit qualifier only tell you the range where you hit felt in the 50%-150%*"turrets base damage" (turrets base damage being ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets).
I don't know all the qualifier nor I really know if they are uniformly distributed, but I guess they are. Wrecking hit is a 300% damage hit and is independant of your chances to hit. My bet is that "excellent shot" is in the 125-150% range, "well aimed is in the "100-125% range, "hits" is in the 75-100% range, and "barely scratch" is in the 50-75% range.
If I forgot a qualifier, insert it in its place, and reduce ranges accordingly for everyone to have the same.
Obviously, "completely miss" is a miss of course.



I thought they removed wrecking hits? I'm one of those guys that always looks at what his turrets hit for (using rails), and it's been a year or so since i've seen a "perfect" or "wrecking" hit
stoicfaux
#19 - 2012-04-09 18:02:30 UTC
Azemar wrote:

I thought they removed wrecking hits? I'm one of those guys that always looks at what his turrets hit for (using rails), and it's been a year or so since i've seen a "perfect" or "wrecking" hit

Probably because you're grouping your guns. The odds of each and every gun in a group of guns getting a perfect/wrecking hit in the same volley is pretty low.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#20 - 2012-04-10 03:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
stoicfaux wrote:
Azemar wrote:

I thought they removed wrecking hits? I'm one of those guys that always looks at what his turrets hit for (using rails), and it's been a year or so since i've seen a "perfect" or "wrecking" hit

Probably because you're grouping your guns. The odds of each and every gun in a group of guns getting a perfect/wrecking hit in the same volley is pretty low.



That would be it. Thank you. And i do believe it would be .125% (8 turrets)
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