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Armor repairer vs Shield boosters
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#101 - 2012-04-12 20:11:52 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Sonny Dang wrote:
Now here's another question: Do Minmatar ships have flaws? Because I can only name its strengths

1.Projectile turrets don't need cap
2.Turrets can range from close-range to med-range without loosing DPS because of high falloff
3.Good tank
4.High dps
5.Fast


As said before, you made 2 mistakes:

Minmatar ships have rather unimpressive tanks and if they want to fight at long range, that means fighting in fall-off and losing significant DPS.

I CBA to find the exact numbers (though several of my older posts have them) but what I do recall from the last time I did a comparison showing pulses vs autocannons it was a zealot and a vaga that I used, and the results were:

Even being generous and assuming they always fight at optimal for both ships (hint: vagas don't fight in optimal, zealots do) the vaga put out about the same raw DPS as a zealot, while having roughly HALF the EHP.

That said, if you REALLY want to see how much better pulses are at damage projection, you just need to be aware of one thing:
A nano vaga does more dps at 20-25km with scorch than it does with barrage, despite having THREE bonuses to autocannons (not that I'm suggesting flying a pulse vaga, which would have a host of other problems).

The problems with minmatar when it comes to balance are largely exaggerated, and stem moreso from matari having better K/D ratios than the other races (which is always going to be true of any ship that can pick its fights) than from their actual performance in fights.
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#102 - 2012-04-12 20:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: axxeessee
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
Now just come and tell me how armor tanks are bad.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?

Quote:
As mentionned though, since this game has ship with such high damage potential, you need to figure out a way for your active tanks to be able to soak all that damage, and links are there for that. Comparing active shield with armor shield though is rather pointless since they both get pretty much the same values (when shield is using crystals).


Please don't add variables to the comparison. Without pills, links, hardwires, implants, etc ... (only taking skills, ship modules and ship bonus into account) armor repping is clearly inferior to shield boosting. 3 reppers with a set of repair supportive rigs (1x Auxiliary 2x nanobot) can only tank about as much as a single shield booster. At least from my experience.


What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. XLSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-04-12 20:49:49 UTC
↑ +1
Perihelion Olenard
#104 - 2012-04-12 21:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
axxeessee wrote:
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
Now just come and tell me how armor tanks are bad.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?

Quote:
As mentionned though, since this game has ship with such high damage potential, you need to figure out a way for your active tanks to be able to soak all that damage, and links are there for that. Comparing active shield with armor shield though is rather pointless since they both get pretty much the same values (when shield is using crystals).


Please don't add variables to the comparison. Without pills, links, hardwires, implants, etc ... (only taking skills, ship modules and ship bonus into account) armor repping is clearly inferior to shield boosting. 3 reppers with a set of repair supportive rigs (1x Auxiliary 2x nanobot) can only tank about as much as a single shield booster. At least from my experience.


What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. LSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).

You should be comparing the cyclone to the brutix and not the myrmidon. The myrmidon is a tier 2 BC while the cyclone is a tier 1 BC. A dual armor repairer brutix is a joke and still struggles on powergrid.
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#105 - 2012-04-12 21:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: axxeessee
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
axxeessee wrote:
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
Now just come and tell me how armor tanks are bad.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?

Quote:
As mentionned though, since this game has ship with such high damage potential, you need to figure out a way for your active tanks to be able to soak all that damage, and links are there for that. Comparing active shield with armor shield though is rather pointless since they both get pretty much the same values (when shield is using crystals).


Please don't add variables to the comparison. Without pills, links, hardwires, implants, etc ... (only taking skills, ship modules and ship bonus into account) armor repping is clearly inferior to shield boosting. 3 reppers with a set of repair supportive rigs (1x Auxiliary 2x nanobot) can only tank about as much as a single shield booster. At least from my experience.


What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. LSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).

You should be comparing the cyclone to the brutix and not the myrmidon. The myrmidon is a tier 2 BC while the cyclone is a tier 1 BC. A dual armor repairer brutix is a joke and still struggles on powergrid.


While you are correct I was just comparing the 2 ships that are most often flown active.

In any case, the dual medium rep brutix, no links, no pills, no hardwirings, still has a higher tank than a no pill no link no hard LSB cyclone, the only way to surpass it is once again crystals. (This assumption is made purely out of memory as I dont have EFT right now, in any case the numbers should be pretty close).

As far as fitting, this is a completely different subject, but you can put dual med rep and ions rather easily on a brutix.
shal ri
Short Bus Window Licker
#106 - 2012-04-13 01:28:49 UTC
axxeessee wrote:
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
Now just come and tell me how armor tanks are bad.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?

Quote:
As mentionned though, since this game has ship with such high damage potential, you need to figure out a way for your active tanks to be able to soak all that damage, and links are there for that. Comparing active shield with armor shield though is rather pointless since they both get pretty much the same values (when shield is using crystals).


Please don't add variables to the comparison. Without pills, links, hardwires, implants, etc ... (only taking skills, ship modules and ship bonus into account) armor repping is clearly inferior to shield boosting. 3 reppers with a set of repair supportive rigs (1x Auxiliary 2x nanobot) can only tank about as much as a single shield booster. At least from my experience.


What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. XLSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).



well said. i fly the the myrm quite a bit solo and its not the rep amount that hurts its the ehp and cycle that really put u in the hole when fightin mutiple targets, but thats blob for u.

sonny as for ur comment b4 about matar ships being most common in combat for thier dmg, range, speed, and fitting. it has more to do with the blob factor then anything else. matar ships can pick thier fights better then gallente ships DURING the engagement because of thier speed and falloff. gallente ship have to commit to the fight more then matar ships do depending on the fits being used.

ie a vaga or nano cane can shoot at a bait ship, determine if he can take on said ships the come to spring trap and gtfo if needed. gallente ships like the myrm thats dual repped cant do the same as its armor tanked and it needs to be closer to apply the dmg.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#107 - 2012-04-13 07:12:04 UTC
Sonny Dang wrote:

Honestly, I didn't start this thread to have anyone criticize about my experience or skills. I started this to gather different ideas and opinions about armor reps vs shield boosters. The opinion on MY part is that armor reps are inferior. I'm here to be proven wrong but so far none of the posts have convinced me. And don't take me wrong, I'm not raging or anything, I find all the posts very educational and informative. Keep it coming.


Fair enough, sorry for getting off topic. You are right, content > flames, and this thread has good stuffs Cool

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#108 - 2012-04-13 07:28:34 UTC
shal ri wrote:

sonny as for ur comment b4 about matar ships being most common in combat for thier dmg, range, speed, and fitting. it has more to do with the blob factor then anything else. matar ships can pick thier fights better then gallente ships DURING the engagement because of thier speed and falloff. gallente ship have to commit to the fight more then matar ships do depending on the fits being used.

ie a vaga or nano cane can shoot at a bait ship, determine if he can take on said ships the come to spring trap and gtfo if needed. gallente ships like the myrm thats dual repped cant do the same as its armor tanked and it needs to be closer to apply the dmg.


That is true, but there is a new ship that fills that hole in Gallente line-up, and makes me very happy (this is now a super versatile race indeed)- the blaster Talos. Faster than most common BCs, agile as fox with one Nano and very nice damage projection with Null, while having the face-melt option with Void. I have to learn this fighting style from the ground up, and it's not a forgiving, beginner ship with that tiny tank, but it's certainly cool to have a viable Gal ship for nano gangs.

There was a time when I felt rather bad about having chosen Gallente (blame reading these forums and not knowing enough) but now when I'm able to fly the ships to their max potential, I'd never change this variety and flavor for anything. It feels awesome to have an excellent choice for any small gang situation in the SMA, and to know that success or failure is only up to me and my skills Cool


.
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-04-13 10:20:53 UTC
Roime wrote:
shal ri wrote:

sonny as for ur comment b4 about matar ships being most common in combat for thier dmg, range, speed, and fitting. it has more to do with the blob factor then anything else. matar ships can pick thier fights better then gallente ships DURING the engagement because of thier speed and falloff. gallente ship have to commit to the fight more then matar ships do depending on the fits being used.

ie a vaga or nano cane can shoot at a bait ship, determine if he can take on said ships the come to spring trap and gtfo if needed. gallente ships like the myrm thats dual repped cant do the same as its armor tanked and it needs to be closer to apply the dmg.


That is true, but there is a new ship that fills that hole in Gallente line-up, and makes me very happy (this is now a super versatile race indeed)- the blaster Talos. Faster than most common BCs, agile as fox with one Nano and very nice damage projection with Null, while having the face-melt option with Void. I have to learn this fighting style from the ground up, and it's not a forgiving, beginner ship with that tiny tank, but it's certainly cool to have a viable Gal ship for nano gangs.

There was a time when I felt rather bad about having chosen Gallente (blame reading these forums and not knowing enough) but now when I'm able to fly the ships to their max potential, I'd never change this variety and flavor for anything. It feels awesome to have an excellent choice for any small gang situation in the SMA, and to know that success or failure is only up to me and my skills Cool




Talking about talos, in a gank, should I ever fit sniper? I did once but this happened to me http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24334
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#110 - 2012-04-13 10:45:45 UTC
Well at least you didn't lose it to a single Thorax & gate gunsOops (I managed to fail myself into his scram range, I'm a total kiting nub and certainly not even decent with Talos yet :D)

I think you were lacking an MWD on your fit? The other Tier 3s might be better suitable for sniping, and the Talos for close/mid-range fighting. In general sniping is more probably viable in gang sizes far exceeding ours, so ymmv. Get a unistas rail Talos squad out and try it?

.