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Wow CCP, you are really rolling the dice on the economy
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Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2012-04-06 04:34:49 UTC

Quote:
Quote:

Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


In fact, it exceeds it in many areas. True story.


Completely shameless.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#162 - 2012-04-06 04:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


In fact, it exceeds it in many areas. True story.


Completely shameless.



  • Incursions > nullsec anything per capita

  • Production (More Factories in highsec by far than null)

  • Research, for same reason

  • Very New Players (they can't kill 0.0 npc's)

  • Ice Mining (more Ice, easy 23/7 access)

Shall I go on or are you ashamed yet?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#163 - 2012-04-06 04:46:37 UTC
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#164 - 2012-04-06 04:47:06 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.



Nice hoodie!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2012-04-06 05:15:38 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.



This is an ISK sink how?

Or is it just like the cooliest to make them care-bears cry?

I KNOW! I KNOW!

We should make Rifters cost 50,000,00000 ISK! Won't them Care-bears cry when we pawnz them!

That would be so awesome!

Then they will unsubscribe cause they are whiney and don't want to spend a week making money for a single Rifter!

WHINERS!
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2012-04-06 05:18:32 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


In fact, it exceeds it in many areas. True story.


Completely shameless.



  • Incursions > nullsec anything per capita

  • Production (More Factories in highsec by far than null)

  • Research, for same reason

  • Very New Players (they can't kill 0.0 npc's)

  • Ice Mining (more Ice, easy 23/7 access)

Shall I go on or are you ashamed yet?


Production is often zero profit or even negative given that "Everything I mine is free" crowd.

Research is crowded, POS is used for just that reason.

Very, very new players may not be able to rat belts but they can "rat" missions for more money than High Sec. Most players more than a month old can rat 0.0.

Ice Mining is probably better in High Sec. That would explain the Goon hatred of it.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#167 - 2012-04-06 05:18:42 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.



This is an ISK sink how?

Or is it just like the cooliest to make them care-bears cry?

I KNOW! I KNOW!

We should make Rifters cost 50,000,00000 ISK! Won't them Care-bears cry when we pawnz them!

That would be so awesome!

Then they will unsubscribe cause they are whiney and don't want to spend a week making money for a single Rifter!

WHINERS!


This is what the addition of the Incursion ISK fountain is doing to prices. Even in null-sec.

The CSM are trying to stop that.

But along with helping High-sec has to come some kind of reasonable scale of risk vs. reward for the risk-averse but skilled players who continue to reside there instead of moving on in pursuit of greater reward at the cost of increased peril.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2012-04-06 05:20:12 UTC
Back to topic.

Removing loot drops DOES NOT REDUCE INFLATION. IT INCREASES IT.

Removing drone minerals DOES NOT REDUCE INFLATION. IT INCREASES IT.

HELLO! HELLO!
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#169 - 2012-04-06 05:22:45 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


In fact, it exceeds it in many areas. True story.


Completely shameless.



  • Incursions > nullsec anything per capita

  • Production (More Factories in highsec by far than null)

  • Research, for same reason

  • Very New Players (they can't kill 0.0 npc's)

  • Ice Mining (more Ice, easy 23/7 access)

Shall I go on or are you ashamed yet?


Production is often zero profit or even negative given that "Everything I mine is free" crowd.

Research is crowded, POS is used for just that reason.

Very, very new players may not be able to rat belts but they can "rat" missions for more money than High Sec. Most players more than a month old can rat 0.0.

Ice Mining is probably better in High Sec. That would explain the Goon hatred of it.


No, mining it doesn't make it free. It makes it cheaper, a value you can assign yourself given the value of your time. Production still yields profit, and therefore ISK/hr.

Research POS in high-sec last I checked are invulnerable to wardecs, am I right? By the way what about the 24 hour cooldown before people can even shoot your research POS? Because boy us null-sec people would sure love 24 hours notice every damn time...

Notice that I said Very New Players. I did not say Month Old Players.

Not to mention all low-end mining for the same reason I stated about ice.

Face it, there are plenty of avenues of income in high-sec which pay more ISK per hour than their null-sec correlaries.

That is whack.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-04-06 05:23:29 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.



This is an ISK sink how?

Or is it just like the cooliest to make them care-bears cry?

I KNOW! I KNOW!

We should make Rifters cost 50,000,00000 ISK! Won't them Care-bears cry when we pawnz them!

That would be so awesome!

Then they will unsubscribe cause they are whiney and don't want to spend a week making money for a single Rifter!

WHINERS!


This is what the addition of the Incursion ISK fountain is doing to prices. Even in null-sec.

The CSM are trying to stop that.

But along with helping High-sec has to come some kind of reasonable scale of risk vs. reward for the risk-averse but skilled players who continue to reside there instead of moving on in pursuit of greater reward at the cost of increased peril.


And they accomplish this by making inflation worse!

They solve the problem by making it worse!

WOO HOO!!!!!!!

The tactics the Goons employ only work when the victim can't leave.
Zircon Dasher
#171 - 2012-04-06 05:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Darth Gustav wrote:
Incursions > nullsec anything per capita


This is the best one!Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#172 - 2012-04-06 05:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
They very much want things to be, in general, harder to afford and more significant to lose.



This is an ISK sink how?

Or is it just like the cooliest to make them care-bears cry?

I KNOW! I KNOW!

We should make Rifters cost 50,000,00000 ISK! Won't them Care-bears cry when we pawnz them!

That would be so awesome!

Then they will unsubscribe cause they are whiney and don't want to spend a week making money for a single Rifter!

WHINERS!


This is what the addition of the Incursion ISK fountain is doing to prices. Even in null-sec.

The CSM are trying to stop that.

But along with helping High-sec has to come some kind of reasonable scale of risk vs. reward for the risk-averse but skilled players who continue to reside there instead of moving on in pursuit of greater reward at the cost of increased peril.


And they accomplish this by making inflation worse!

They solve the problem by making it worse!

WOO HOO!!!!!!!

The tactics the Goons employ only work when the victim can't leave.


You have a very viable strategy there.

It's not like you people couldn't organize players to run and vote properly against them.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#173 - 2012-04-06 05:27:38 UTC
You're working with false premises here.

They don't really care about inflation because it's not game-breakingly high and it's not a real world economy. What they care far more about is risk/reward balances, mining as a player-run task, and the devaluation of acquiring ships. Those are the reasons why you're seeing the drone change and the bounty adjustments. Again, they want ships to be harder to get than they are now.

Possible ISK sinks are a whole other matter, and a distant second in importance to balancing the actual output of the economy in a way that promotes generally better gameplay.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2012-04-06 05:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Quote:
Quote:


Production is often zero profit or even negative given that "Everything I mine is free" crowd.

Research is crowded, POS is used for just that reason.

Very, very new players may not be able to rat belts but they can "rat" missions for more money than High Sec. Most players more than a month old can rat 0.0.

Ice Mining is probably better in High Sec. That would explain the Goon hatred of it.


No, mining it doesn't make it free. It makes it cheaper, a value you can assign yourself given the value of your time. Production still yields profit, and therefore ISK/hr.

Research POS in high-sec last I checked are invulnerable to wardecs, am I right? By the way what about the 24 hour cooldown before people can even shoot your research POS? Because boy us null-sec people would sure love 24 hours notice every damn time...

Notice that I said Very New Players. I did not say Month Old Players.

Not to mention all low-end mining for the same reason I stated about ice.

Face it, there are plenty of avenues of income in high-sec which pay more ISK per hour than their null-sec correlaries.

That is whack.


Oh yeah, Null Sec POS dropped in the middle of your territory get shot at all the time, I am sure.

And thank you for agreeing that mining isn't free. That does not change the fact that some people seem to think it is and then destroy manufacturing profits because of that.

Players less than one month old are important, and the imbalance between null/high for ratting is obviously of a very temporary nature. It SHOULD be that way.

Low end mining does not compete with ABC mining. Ice mining may, so no wonder Goons and CSM are hysterical about it.

LOOK LOOK! The high-secers have SOMETHING. Must smash!
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2012-04-06 05:32:50 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
You're working with false premises here.

They don't really care about inflation because it's not game-breakingly high and it's not a real world economy. What they care far more about is risk/reward balances, mining as a player-run task, and the devaluation of acquiring ships. Those are the reasons why you're seeing the drone change and the bounty adjustments. Again, they want ships to be harder to get than they are now.

Possible ISK sinks are a whole other matter, and a distant second in importance to balancing the actual output of the economy in a way that promotes generally better gameplay.


They do not care about risk/reward balance in the slightest extent or low-sec would have the highest reward of anywhere.

Don't be absurd. The average null-sec drone has far less risk than almost any resident of low-sec.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#176 - 2012-04-06 05:33:37 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Quote:
Quote:


Production is often zero profit or even negative given that "Everything I mine is free" crowd.

Research is crowded, POS is used for just that reason.

Very, very new players may not be able to rat belts but they can "rat" missions for more money than High Sec. Most players more than a month old can rat 0.0.

Ice Mining is probably better in High Sec. That would explain the Goon hatred of it.


No, mining it doesn't make it free. It makes it cheaper, a value you can assign yourself given the value of your time. Production still yields profit, and therefore ISK/hr.

Research POS in high-sec last I checked are invulnerable to wardecs, am I right? By the way what about the 24 hour cooldown before people can even shoot your research POS? Because boy us null-sec people would sure love 24 hours notice every damn time...

Notice that I said Very New Players. I did not say Month Old Players.

Not to mention all low-end mining for the same reason I stated about ice.

Face it, there are plenty of avenues of income in high-sec which pay more ISK per hour than their null-sec correlaries.

That is whack.


Oh yeah, Null Sec POS dropped in the middle of your territory get shot at all the time, I am sure.

And thank you for agreeing that mining isn't free. That does not change the fact that some people seem to think it is and then destroy manufacturing profits because of that.

Players less than one month old are important, and the imbalance between null/high for ratting is obviously of a very temporary nature. It SHOULD be that way.

Low end mining does not compete with ABC mining. Ice mining may, so no wonder Goons and CSM are hysterical about it.

LOOK LOOK! The high-secers have SOMETHING. Most smash!


New players should make the most ISK/hr in high-sec.

Reasonably competent and experienced players should always make more ISK/hr elsewhere.

That's not so hard to agree on.

Also, notice I didn't name high-end mining.

I just want to point out that you were totally strawmanning me with that last point. I was comparing low-end mining in high-sec vs. low/null. It's incontrovertibly obvious where the highest actual ISK/hr is.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#177 - 2012-04-06 05:34:39 UTC
Ah, I see. This has nothing to do with "the economy", and everything to do with the incoming risk/reward balancing.

In that case, forget all the "discussion" and just deal wiz it. It's coming, and no amount of NPC alt forum whining and unsub threatening is going to stop it.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-04-06 05:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Darth Tickles wrote:
Ah, I see. This has nothing to do with "the economy", and everything to do with the incoming risk/reward balancing.

In that case, forget all the "discussion" and just deal wiz it. It's coming, and no amount of NPC alt forum whining and unsub threatening is going to stop it.


Again, it has nothing to do with risk/reward.

I will go farther and say it has nothing to do with anything except weak people going out drinking with the CSM and then getting really stupid ideas locked in their heads.

CCP: Inflation is out of control, what do I do, what do I do?

Mittani: These changes will fix it!

CCP:Yes, and you are obviously a paragon of virtue with no ulterior motive! I will implement these changes without thinking about them at all!

Mittani:Yes, yes.......


Well, CCP, here is the Clue Train coming:

Nerfing Product inputs INCREASES inflation.

Nerfing ISK inputs DECREASES inflation.

ISK Sinks also decrease inflation and would be easy to implement as well. Like a ISK TAX on refining.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#179 - 2012-04-06 05:40:59 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
Ah, I see. This has nothing to do with "the economy", and everything to do with the incoming risk/reward balancing.

In that case, forget all the "discussion" and just deal wiz it. It's coming, and no amount of NPC alt forum whining and unsub threatening is going to stop it.


Again, it has nothing to do with risk/reward.

I will go farther and say it has nothing to do with anything except weak people going out drinking with the CSM and then getting really stupid ideas locked in their heads.

CCP: Inflation is out of control, what do I do, what do I do?

Mittani: These changes will fix it!

CCP:Yes, and you are obviously a paragon of virtue with no ulterior motive! I will implement these changes without thinking about them at all!

Mittani:Yes, yes.......


You should have a very successful CSM8 campaign. I'll consider giving you my vote.

Suggestion: Organize your voters.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#180 - 2012-04-06 05:41:09 UTC
OMNOMNOM

Incoherent hisec forum warrior tears. These are only going to get better and better as these changes land and the jita camp starts.