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Wow CCP, you are really rolling the dice on the economy
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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#141 - 2012-04-06 01:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Zircon Dasher wrote:
lol @ epistemic problems with conceptions of causal relationships in open and dynamic systems.

You're right, in a complex system cause and effect become completely divorced.

Those roads and bridges were built in spite of the New Deal, not because of it. The American people, rebellious as ever, decided that, despite the government's offer of paychecks, it made better sense to just communally build roads and bridges so that when the Japanese attacked a decade later, we could be ready to respond.

In a sense, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor built those roads and bridges and restored the US infrastructure.

Cause and effect, who needs them?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Zircon Dasher
#142 - 2012-04-06 02:36:16 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
lol @ epistemic problems with conceptions of causal relationships in open and dynamic systems.

You're right, in a complex system cause and effect become completely divorced.

Those roads and bridges were built in spite of the New Deal, not because of it. The American people, rebellious as ever, decided that, despite the government's offer of paychecks, it made better sense to just communally build roads and bridges so that when the Japanese attacked a decade later, we could be ready to respond.

In a sense, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor built those roads and bridges and restored the US infrastructure.

Cause and effect, who needs them?


LolLolLol

4 realsies?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#143 - 2012-04-06 02:47:49 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Different world. Now Tier 2 Battlecruisers are the norm and add on's like Rigs and a lack of T1 Balance around T2 Fitting stats have made ships like T1 Cruisers less then viable for engagements. With all the new ships the bar is being set higher and higher with what you have to use to compete.

Back then a T1 Battleship was like a Capital today and Frigates / Cruisers were the norm. Now the field has expanded. The rebalance may help lower the cost of entry level PvP making ISK Costs go down for T1 Ships which might alleviate the problem.



True enough, but I'll tell ya something. Fun in Eve is not defined by the nifty ship, it is defined by what you do with it. It is more fun to get your corp mates and try to do a lvl 4 in T1 cruisers than all of you in pimped out faction sparkle boats.

One of the most fun experience I had in Eve was in Null sec. I fit up a crappy blackbird with whatever crap I could find on the market, all T1 stuff. I joined the fleet and some guy laughed, "hu hu hu, you won't jam anything with that!". Well a few minutes later, off we ran to help some blues save a carrier that was under attack by some reds. In we zip to the carrier and I locked the reds, each one of them, zap. I jammed them all in a cheap little crappy ship. The fleet asked, "Why didn't they shoot? What happened." I told them, "I used my crappy little blackbird." They didn't laugh at my crappy blackbird after that or my crazy caracal stuffed full of tracking disrupters.

You do not need the big fancy pants ship to have fun. In fact, flying what you can afford to loose and not giving a damn is where the fun is.



nerf ecm
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#144 - 2012-04-06 02:48:55 UTC
Potamus Jenkins wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Different world. Now Tier 2 Battlecruisers are the norm and add on's like Rigs and a lack of T1 Balance around T2 Fitting stats have made ships like T1 Cruisers less then viable for engagements. With all the new ships the bar is being set higher and higher with what you have to use to compete.

Back then a T1 Battleship was like a Capital today and Frigates / Cruisers were the norm. Now the field has expanded. The rebalance may help lower the cost of entry level PvP making ISK Costs go down for T1 Ships which might alleviate the problem.



True enough, but I'll tell ya something. Fun in Eve is not defined by the nifty ship, it is defined by what you do with it. It is more fun to get your corp mates and try to do a lvl 4 in T1 cruisers than all of you in pimped out faction sparkle boats.

One of the most fun experience I had in Eve was in Null sec. I fit up a crappy blackbird with whatever crap I could find on the market, all T1 stuff. I joined the fleet and some guy laughed, "hu hu hu, you won't jam anything with that!". Well a few minutes later, off we ran to help some blues save a carrier that was under attack by some reds. In we zip to the carrier and I locked the reds, each one of them, zap. I jammed them all in a cheap little crappy ship. The fleet asked, "Why didn't they shoot? What happened." I told them, "I used my crappy little blackbird." They didn't laugh at my crappy blackbird after that or my crazy caracal stuffed full of tracking disrupters.

You do not need the big fancy pants ship to have fun. In fact, flying what you can afford to loose and not giving a damn is where the fun is.



nerf ecm


I personally disdain this over-used tearpost, but you sir have earned a +1 from me for it this time!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#145 - 2012-04-06 03:06:48 UTC
Potamus Jenkins wrote:
nerf ecm

Why?

People with falcon alts are the easiest to bait, they will always engage clearly superior ships purely because they believe they can jam you. Fit some ECCM and fit for ranged DPS, overheat the ECCM to kill the falcon, then kill them.

At worst you get a ~150m recon kill, at best you kill whatever the hell they engaged you in as well.

Unless you're complaining about it in small fleet fights? In which case why not fit up one ship specifically for killing the falcon? One of my alliance mates has a pretty funny anti-falcon sacrilege he likes to use a lot.

Anyway, a falcon isn't really that big of a deal unless you aren't prepared for it. It's a force multiplier with very low EHP and easily accessible counters, I'd rather face a rag-tag gang with a falcon than face a sniper gang with rapiers, arazus etc.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#146 - 2012-04-06 03:28:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


If CCP didn't ban anyone for the battle of LXQ (3000+ in one system) what makes you think they'll ban anyone for burning Jita?


Completely unrelated, but that was fun.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#147 - 2012-04-06 03:31:31 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


If CCP didn't ban anyone for the battle of LXQ (3000+ in one system) what makes you think they'll ban anyone for burning Jita?


Completely unrelated, but that was fun.



Yeah, one of those events obviously happened in Star Trek Online...Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Vince Snetterton
#148 - 2012-04-06 04:02:03 UTC
Seems like most people here think I am wrong with my views of chaos on the horizon.
That's OK, I have never been one to believe the masses are always right.

Here is a question that NO ONE but CCP can answer: What will be the ISK bounties set on the drones?
Keep in mind, all those players in the Drone Regions won't suddenly disappear.
Suddenly they are creating ISK with drone bounties. And let's not forget the drone bounties that will still occur in high sec.
I would estimate that 10-12% of all the missions my L4 agent gives me are Drone missions.

So you are looking at a bump in high sec bounties as well.
But the elephant in the room will be the increases ISK from the Drone Lands.

So CCP, I ask again, do you REALLY know how ALL these simultaneous changes will impact the economy?
How much ISK do you forsee being injected into the economy at the same time all these high end minerals are vanishing?

Tinkering with many sinks and faucets at once is a recipe for wild fluctuations.

But hell, what do I care. My 2 accounts are sitting on about 8 billion in cash.
I will buy plexes with that as long as the cash holds out.
If the game becomes unpleasant for me to play, I will just slip away as do most people who quit the game.

Hopefully, I am wrong and the game remains interesting and enjoyable to play.
I am just not betting on it.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#149 - 2012-04-06 04:09:08 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Seems like most people here think I am wrong with my views of chaos on the horizon.
That's OK, I have never been one to believe the masses are always right.

Here is a question that NO ONE but CCP can answer: What will be the ISK bounties set on the drones?
Keep in mind, all those players in the Drone Regions won't suddenly disappear.
Suddenly they are creating ISK with drone bounties. And let's not forget the drone bounties that will still occur in high sec.
I would estimate that 10-12% of all the missions my L4 agent gives me are Drone missions.

So you are looking at a bump in high sec bounties as well.
But the elephant in the room will be the increases ISK from the Drone Lands.

So CCP, I ask again, do you REALLY know how ALL these simultaneous changes will impact the economy?
How much ISK do you forsee being injected into the economy at the same time all these high end minerals are vanishing?

Tinkering with many sinks and faucets at once is a recipe for wild fluctuations.

But hell, what do I care. My 2 accounts are sitting on about 8 billion in cash.
I will buy plexes with that as long as the cash holds out.
If the game becomes unpleasant for me to play, I will just slip away as do most people who quit the game.

Hopefully, I am wrong and the game remains interesting and enjoyable to play.
I am just not betting on it.


Let's say you're right and the ISK injection is titanic.

So was the expulsion of all the botter ISK and items being destroyed. Those bots paid their subs through PLEX, which profit CCP more than normal for-pay subs at the end of the day. That also had an effect on Eve's economy. It drove up the demand for PLEX and therefore the price.

So we get a fountain of ISK which hypothetically will be titanic balanced against the titanic sink of destroyed and queued for destruction ISK from botters.

Looks like business as usual to me.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2012-04-06 04:17:22 UTC
Spaceships is srs bizness. Mhm.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-04-06 04:22:55 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
L'ouris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


If CCP didn't ban anyone for the battle of LXQ (3000+ in one system) what makes you think they'll ban anyone for burning Jita?


Completely unrelated, but that was fun.



Yeah, one of those events obviously happened in Star Trek Online...Roll

You owe me for cold coffee,which just exited my nose.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2012-04-06 04:25:04 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Clearly the Null Bears are bent on "cornering the market" regardless of the consequences to EVE.



Er, the "null bears" couldn't give a damn about your precious high sec market - we're too busy having fun playing EVE. You know you can make stuff in null sec right?


And yet the CSM hasn't looked at a High Sec nerf they don't like.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#153 - 2012-04-06 04:25:43 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
L'ouris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


If CCP didn't ban anyone for the battle of LXQ (3000+ in one system) what makes you think they'll ban anyone for burning Jita?


Completely unrelated, but that was fun.



Yeah, one of those events obviously happened in Star Trek Online...Roll

You owe me for cold coffee,which just exited my nose.


Sorry about that, just doing my part to add content to the Eve universe!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2012-04-06 04:25:44 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

But it does benefit Null Bears, so I suppose that makes it okay.

It will make, by itself, INFLATION WORSE.


Good, Eve needs some price inflation. It's also good for high sec. Maybe you can find something else to do other than shoot rats. As prices go up, the value in shooting rats goes down. Instead, maybe build ammo, mine something, trade over priced ships to rat chasing people? There's an entire sandbox out there that does not involve shooting red + symbols.


So you think Miners are better than Mission Runners?

Or are you just trying to sound clever?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#155 - 2012-04-06 04:26:37 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Seems like most people here think I am wrong with my views of chaos on the horizon.
That's OK, I have never been one to believe the masses are always right.

Here is a question that NO ONE but CCP can answer: What will be the ISK bounties set on the drones?
Keep in mind, all those players in the Drone Regions won't suddenly disappear.
Suddenly they are creating ISK with drone bounties. And let's not forget the drone bounties that will still occur in high sec.
I would estimate that 10-12% of all the missions my L4 agent gives me are Drone missions.

So you are looking at a bump in high sec bounties as well.
But the elephant in the room will be the increases ISK from the Drone Lands.

So CCP, I ask again, do you REALLY know how ALL these simultaneous changes will impact the economy?
How much ISK do you forsee being injected into the economy at the same time all these high end minerals are vanishing?

Tinkering with many sinks and faucets at once is a recipe for wild fluctuations.

But hell, what do I care. My 2 accounts are sitting on about 8 billion in cash.
I will buy plexes with that as long as the cash holds out.
If the game becomes unpleasant for me to play, I will just slip away as do most people who quit the game.

Hopefully, I am wrong and the game remains interesting and enjoyable to play.
I am just not betting on it.

No one is disagreeing with your view of economic chaos on the horizon, although it probably won't be *that* bad. What we are disagreeing with is your view that this is a bad thing.

As you've said, you are currently sitting on around 8 billion ISK. Most long time players have much larger stashes tucked away that currently go unused, this is not a sign of a "healthy" economy in a computer game. Maybe in real life it is desirable for everyone to be able to afford everything, but not in a game.

Many games have been ruined in the past because everything became too accessible, in my honest opinion Eve could very much do with a little bit of poverty to ensure this doesn't happen to us. It has already begun to head in that direction, hopefully CCP can save the day before it is too late.

Either way, this seems like a step in the correct direction.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-04-06 04:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Seems like most people here think I am wrong with my views of chaos on the horizon.
That's OK, I have never been one to believe the masses are always right.

Here is a question that NO ONE but CCP can answer: What will be the ISK bounties set on the drones?
Keep in mind, all those players in the Drone Regions won't suddenly disappear.
Suddenly they are creating ISK with drone bounties. And let's not forget the drone bounties that will still occur in high sec.
I would estimate that 10-12% of all the missions my L4 agent gives me are Drone missions.

So you are looking at a bump in high sec bounties as well.
But the elephant in the room will be the increases ISK from the Drone Lands.

So CCP, I ask again, do you REALLY know how ALL these simultaneous changes will impact the economy?
How much ISK do you forsee being injected into the economy at the same time all these high end minerals are vanishing?

Tinkering with many sinks and faucets at once is a recipe for wild fluctuations.

But hell, what do I care. My 2 accounts are sitting on about 8 billion in cash.
I will buy plexes with that as long as the cash holds out.
If the game becomes unpleasant for me to play, I will just slip away as do most people who quit the game.

Hopefully, I am wrong and the game remains interesting and enjoyable to play.
I am just not betting on it.

No one is disagreeing with your view of economic chaos on the horizon, although it probably won't be *that* bad. What we are disagreeing with is your view that this is a bad thing.

As you've said, you are currently sitting on around 8 billion ISK. Most long time players have much larger stashes tucked away that currently go unused, this is not a sign of a "healthy" economy in a computer game. Maybe in real life it is desirable for everyone to be able to afford everything, but not in a game.

Many games have been ruined in the past because everything became too accessible, in my honest opinion Eve could very much do with a little bit of poverty to ensure this doesn't happen to us. It has already begun to head in that direction, hopefully CCP can save the day before it is too late.

Either way, this seems like a step in the correct direction.


So making it impossible for new high sec players to afford anything will be helpful.

Indeed.

You know why Rift failed? Cause the Gersh decided to make Bright Wizards II and *BLEEP* all over Rogues, who were like 1/3 of all players.

High Sec is more than half of all players.

I suspect someone in CCP has gotten tired of explaining to the children why destroying themselves is a bad idea and has decided to let the toddlers get to it.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#157 - 2012-04-06 04:29:09 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Clearly the Null Bears are bent on "cornering the market" regardless of the consequences to EVE.



Er, the "null bears" couldn't give a damn about your precious high sec market - we're too busy having fun playing EVE. You know you can make stuff in null sec right?


And yet the CSM hasn't looked at a High Sec nerf they don't like.


Obvious nerf requirements are obvious.

RISK = REWARD

The kiddie rides are never as good as the big coasters. You heard it here first!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-04-06 04:32:25 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Clearly the Null Bears are bent on "cornering the market" regardless of the consequences to EVE.



Er, the "null bears" couldn't give a damn about your precious high sec market - we're too busy having fun playing EVE. You know you can make stuff in null sec right?


And yet the CSM hasn't looked at a High Sec nerf they don't like.


Obvious nerf requirements are obvious.

RISK = REWARD

The kiddie rides are never as good as the big coasters. You heard it here first!


Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2012-04-06 04:32:39 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Obvious nerf requirements are obvious.

RISK = REWARD

The kiddie rides are never as good as the big coasters. You heard it here first!

Agreed. Same reason why Macs don't have viruses.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#160 - 2012-04-06 04:33:43 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Clearly the Null Bears are bent on "cornering the market" regardless of the consequences to EVE.



Er, the "null bears" couldn't give a damn about your precious high sec market - we're too busy having fun playing EVE. You know you can make stuff in null sec right?


And yet the CSM hasn't looked at a High Sec nerf they don't like.


Obvious nerf requirements are obvious.

RISK = REWARD

The kiddie rides are never as good as the big coasters. You heard it here first!


Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


In fact, it exceeds it in many areas. True story.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom