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Wow CCP, you are really rolling the dice on the economy
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bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-04-05 11:09:57 UTC
This is all well and good but there is one small-ish problem.

MINING IS A ******* AWFUL GAME MECHANIC.

Oh yeah, and due to the awesomeness of suicide gankers it's probably also the highest risk profession in high sec, by which I mean the only PvE activity in high sec that actually has any (hows that for ironic).

So basically with ALL cash bounties nerfed, inflation inevitably going insane and ALL secondary sources of minerals removed (basically a double nerf for anything that's not sleepers/incursions) the only way to get ahead is going to be null sec mining or playing markets.

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm all for mining/industry getting a boost and further I'm also firmly of the opinion that any impacts the market feels as a result of CCP actions against RMT'ers/botters is a good thing as it represents the market regaining equilibrium that has been artficially screwed up by cheating *** holes.

But I will never mine. And I'm not the only one. If there was any way to conduct an accurate survey on these forums I would be absolutely fascinated to see the numbers for people who would quit when/if faced with a game where industry was the ONLY viable form of PvE activity.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-04-05 11:31:54 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.

In the last year Tier 2 Battlecruisers have gone from 26 million to 47 million, Battleships are up to at Tier 1, 45mil > 85mil, Tier 2, 75mil > 135mil and Tier 3, 110 > 210mil.

Across the board prices are still rising and while that is fine for power players that leaves casuals and people without 3 accounts playing a much more difficult game of second job online then was previously coined for EVE.

I think it is about time they fixed the economy now before people who don't have 6 hours a day to grind up and leave because all the awesome new Ships CCP is releasing have to be flown with kids gloves because there goes halve your bank if you risk it.


If people can't afford the ships now, they won't be able to afford it later after money making nerfs. This change will change absolutely nothing. All they're really doing is shifting isk around to different activities and out right nerfing things. The only reason why prices are so high now is because demand is obviously higher than supply and all the people buying up minerals in anticipation of drone poop not dropping anymore.

Yes, if they go through with the nerf, prices of things may go down because there will be less demand, but the gap that is there now will be there then because people will be making less money. Also, initially, it's going to be a lot worse than it is now and the market won't follow the trend immediately. Hell, if all the rumors about moon mining and high sec crap is true about some of the alliances I hear, the prices won't drop much at all. Also, it will make anyone without a ship program avoid PVP even more, initially of course, because the gap will be even bigger at the start of all this.

Personally, I don't care. I'm good at making isk and I still will be after the nerfs. But saying the economy is broken is a load of bull crap and all this nerf will do is give the illusion that something was fixed when there was nothing broken in the first place.
Lt Angus
Goat Herders
#43 - 2012-04-05 11:44:31 UTC
cant wait, the econemy should not be something you can set your watch by, should go nuts everynow and then
malaire
#44 - 2012-04-05 11:54:38 UTC
This is good time to be a trader. Cool

I'm not active in any of the "interesting" areas which are getting changed, but I've got a lot of cheap items dumped to my jita buy orders, probably from people wanting quick ISK to invest in greener pastures.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-04-05 13:33:42 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.

In the last year Tier 2 Battlecruisers have gone from 26 million to 47 million, Battleships are up to at Tier 1, 45mil > 85mil, Tier 2, 75mil > 135mil and Tier 3, 110 > 210mil.

Across the board prices are still rising and while that is fine for power players that leaves casuals and people without 3 accounts playing a much more difficult game of second job online then was previously coined for EVE.

I think it is about time they fixed the economy now before people who don't have 6 hours a day to grind up and leave because all the awesome new Ships CCP is releasing have to be flown with kids gloves because there goes halve your bank if you risk it.


There is no real need for low prices. Prices were much worse many years ago.
When prices go up more, people will start appreciating smaller/cheaper ships again.
Low prices hurt the game more than high do, because of decadence and the loss of emotional value.

People need to stop being decadent and spoiled ... and if such people leave ... it's even better for everybody !
People who cry about high prices either have to learn to put :effort: into something,
or hey ... have fun somewhere else ! :D

And with Inferno, prices will go up even more ! :D


It's perfect !



TL;DR:

Higher prices means we will have more variety in space,
cowards and spoiled brats will remove themselves over time,
people will start appreciating again what they have worked for !


Perfect !
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#46 - 2012-04-05 13:44:33 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
When prices go up more, people will start appreciating smaller/cheaper ships again.
Low prices hurt the game more than high do, because of decadence and the loss of emotional value.

Oh well, the ol' Drake backbone is creaking a little. Still not as bad as the tengu backbone some people rely on.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#47 - 2012-04-05 13:57:09 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.

In the last year Tier 2 Battlecruisers have gone from 26 million to 47 million, Battleships are up to at Tier 1, 45mil > 85mil, Tier 2, 75mil > 135mil and Tier 3, 110 > 210mil.

Across the board prices are still rising and while that is fine for power players that leaves casuals and people without 3 accounts playing a much more difficult game of second job online then was previously coined for EVE.


The economy will recover on its own. If mineral prices skyrocket all that will mean is that players who do combat pvp or mission running will flock to the mining profession in their veldspar-mining cruisers and battleships to help the career miners meet the demand for minerals. Once prices settle, the pvp/pve players will continue on their merry way.

This is not an assumption or made up fact. This is based on Adam Smith's principles on modern economics in which he came up with the idea of the "Invisible Hand" theory stating that the self interests of buyers and sellers in a free market economy will stabilize the economy over time. Think of it as an economic form of "homeostasis" in which things always balances out eventually.

Besides, it's not like anyone is stuck doing one profession just because they trained their characters for it. I am strictly a mining person and I occassionally dip into manufacturing, pvp, pve, and even null-sec roaming. Eve Online allows players to be that flexible after all.

Adapt or Die
bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-04-05 14:05:35 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:


There is no real need for low prices. Prices were much worse many years ago.
When prices go up more, people will start appreciating smaller/cheaper ships again.
Low prices hurt the game more than high do, because of decadence and the loss of emotional value.

TL;DR:

Higher prices means we will have more variety in space,
cowards and spoiled brats will remove themselves over time,
people will start appreciating again what they have worked for !

Perfect !


Thats utter crap btw.

For a start prices right now are just about as high as I can remember them being. I'll admit that my memory of market prices at the end end of 2004 is a little bit hazy as I didn't really have much of a clue what was going on but I do remember that my first Tempest (I was so proud) which I got some time during 2005 cost about the 125mill mark.

Atm the cheapest to be had in empire is 115mill and apparently the median selling price 124mill. Thats, ooooh I dunno, 7 years of almost constant deflation reversed in the space of a few months. And its still accelerating.

As far as appreciating smaller/cheaper ships again thats only going to happen if they're actually any good. Right now the majority don't fly cruisers and frigs because they're rubbish, not because they're so massively wealthy that they can afford to burn isk all the time. Ship diversity is going to rely exclusively on CCP getting the tiericide ship rebalancing right because otherwise pvp will simply be everyone flying around in the defacto OP cruiser or frig rather than the defato OP BC. Yeah, thats really good for diversity.

As far as low prices hurting more than high prices that basically comes down to your wallet. It's very easy to take the holistic view of it when you're sitting on billions of isk, its slightly different when you're still trying to make your way in the game and the economy has gone supernova around you.

"Too High" is just as bad if not worse than "Too Low". While too low does indeed take some of the meaning out of the game how much meaning is there when the huge variety of ships in Eve boils down to whatever cruiser is cheapest?
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-04-05 14:12:46 UTC
Hopefully with the RMT purge, prices will begin to fall
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-04-05 14:24:12 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:


Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.


Hell no. The markets shake like shoot dead every change. If they are going to again, better once than 5 diferent times.
Dbars Grinding
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#51 - 2012-04-05 14:24:28 UTC
i cant be a minmatar honor warrior if i cant afford honor ships.

I have more space likes than you. 
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#52 - 2012-04-05 14:37:15 UTC
bldyannoyed wrote:



As far as appreciating smaller/cheaper ships again thats only going to happen if they're actually any good. Right now the majority don't fly cruisers and frigs because they're rubbish, not because they're so massively wealthy that they can afford to burn isk all the time. Ship diversity is going to rely exclusively on CCP getting the tiericide ship rebalancing right because otherwise pvp will simply be everyone flying around in the defacto OP cruiser or frig rather than the defato OP BC. Yeah, thats really good for diversity.


Not true at all. Everywhere I go throughout all four empires and various regions I run into players who fly mostly frigs, dessies and cruisers. I travel a lot and I am in the process of cleaning up the hoarding I made throughout high-sec in 20-30 systems. That means I have traveled through hundreds of star systems in between those 20-30 systems where my random junk are stashed and I always run into frigs, dessies and cruisers.

Also, I have seen these things in action and they are not rubbish. If used right, a pack of frigates or dessies can kill a well-fitted battlecruiser or battleship. The Rifter, Atron, Catalyst, Thrasher, Coercer, Vexor, Stabber, and Blackbird are also extremely versatile for their class. Why also do you think Frigates and Cruisers are always primaried in battle? It's not because they're weak, which they are, but because they are extremely annoying if not dealt with early on.

Adapt or Die
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2012-04-05 14:40:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Why also do you think Frigates and Cruisers are always primaried in battle? It's not because they're weak, which they are, but because they are extremely annoying if not dealt with early on.
It's both: they're low-hanging fruit. They can be annoying, but they are also very easy to get rid of, so the opportunity cost for shooting them is nil.

They're no more annoying than their advanced versions, but they're a free reduction in the enemy's numbers.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#54 - 2012-04-05 14:44:31 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

You do not need the big fancy pants ship to have fun. In fact, flying what you can afford to loose and not giving a damn is where the fun is.

Amen.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#55 - 2012-04-05 14:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Vince Snetterton wrote:


Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.



Calm down. Relax.

Take a deeeeep breath.

It's really all going to be OK.

It's a GAME.

***
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-04-05 14:47:19 UTC
Every single change will apparently lead to masses of players unsubbing in protest.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-04-05 14:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Skex Relbore
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
Hopefully with the RMT purge, prices will begin to fall


LOL you really think this

While yes there were plenty of bots grinding isk from bounties far far more were mining.

The removal of BOTs is going to put a serious damper on the supply of minerals. how much? I don't know but I having tried my hand at mining I suspect that the vast majority of minerals that are mined are done so by bots so I expect to see a massive reduction in the supply of minerals which is going to equate a massive increase in price.

It's going to be a very interesting experiment. I'm still trying to decide where all this is going to end up.

It's all going to depend on how much they tinker with the ISK supply. I fully expect prices on everything to rise as the supply of raw materials is decimated. however if they reduce the influx of isk sufficiently we won't see much change in prices

What will happen regardless is a reduction in real economic activity. Reduced supply or minerals will naturally result in a decreased supply of finished goods.

I think it's an open question on whether or not human miners are really capable of supplying the market for minerals. and yeah I know we'll eventually reach a new equilibrium but that equilibrium is likely to at a much smaller volume than currently

Honestly I think we're about to see a recession in EVE.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-04-05 14:52:30 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Honestly I think we're about to see a recession in EVE.


Obviously you don't even understand what a "recession" is.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-04-05 14:58:16 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
Hopefully with the RMT purge, prices will begin to fall


LOL you really think this

While yes there were plenty of bots grinding isk from bounties far far more were mining.

The removal of BOTs is going to put a serious damper on the supply of minerals. how much? I don't know but I having tried my hand at mining I suspect that the vast majority of minerals that are mined are done so by bots so I expect to see a massive reduction in the supply of minerals which is going to equate a massive increase in price.

It's going to be a very interesting experiment. I'm still trying to decide where all this is going to end up.

It's all going to depend on how much they tinker with the ISK supply. I fully expect prices on everything to rise as the supply of raw materials is decimated. however if they reduce the influx of isk sufficiently we won't see much change in prices

What will happen regardless is a reduction in real economic activity. Reduced supply or minerals will naturally result in a decreased supply of finished goods.

I think it's an open question on whether or not human miners are really capable of supplying the market for minerals. and yeah I know we'll eventually reach a new equilibrium but that equilibrium is likely to at a much smaller volume than currently

Honestly I think we're about to see a recession in EVE.


I said RMT, not botting. Purging the bots will make minerals more expensive and raise prices. Purging the RMT will remove ISK from the market. With less isk in the market, demand will slow down as people can't afford to buy the expensive ships. That will cause the market to be over saturated with expensive items and hopefully, drive down prices.

But there are just too many variables all being affected at the same time to really tell what will happen. A lot of the serious botting operations were being used to fund RMT. Then with all the other nerfs and changes, who the hell knows
bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-04-05 14:58:36 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Honestly I think we're about to see a recession in EVE.


Obviously you don't even understand what a "recession" is.


Recession: A period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced

Sounds spot on to me