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the importance of T2 BPOs
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Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#141 - 2012-05-08 14:05:36 UTC
Jajas Helper wrote:
So this comes down to:
i'm butthurt someone is making profit of ships and damn you all, its not me so i'm mad!
(sounds about right?)


Must be a troll walking in that stinky black cave of yours.
Haulie Berry
#142 - 2012-05-08 14:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Haulie Berry interceptors are common ships that invention where invention is raped by the OP T2BPO. I all ready said this too you.


Yes, but I already showed you - with numbers and math and everything - why they would still not be an attractive invention option in the absence of T2 BPOs because even at BPO profit levels, they produce a really mediocre income (substantially less than anything I currently invent). So you have not yet answered the question.

The question was, in fact, proposed in response to the statistic about interceptors after a thorough explanation of why I would STILL not find them an attractive invention option if BPOs vanished tomorrow.

Seriously, I know you think things like "math" and "logic" are all part of a conspiracy to keep the poor inventors under the bootheel of BPO owners, but the rest of us find them quite useful.

Again: Name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become attractive to invent in the absence of T2 BPOs. Interceptors would not even be an attractive build option if I had a BPO so, no, they are not the answer you're looking for.
Haulie Berry
#143 - 2012-05-08 14:50:33 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
how suprising, brewlar wakes up right after somebody made post that is bad enough that it could come from brewlar himselfRoll

your shuttle theory is funny but has nothing to do with the whole thing. it completly ignores Volume (wich makes it really bad already) and that somebody who is aiming for max profits would never sell for less than he could get.

Ignore that it's a game, you just showed us that you have some serious logical barriers about business that you have to master before you can even understand why your shuttle theory is that bad.




Well I've been reading these posts so much already that I don't even know where I type my answers :P
Tough adding volume would just show tht the person owning the bpo could make more and get more profit while the inventor would just get amount of profit. Or do you wanna think this on the CCP scale?

Inventors vs BPO owners. I have a faint memory about a chart that showed that 35% (or something like that) is made from bpos. Tough I'm not totaly sure about it. And I'm too tired to go find it.

Plus the shuttle thing more about mechanics. Thats how it realy works. how you sell the stuff is a completely different thing I do know that. I would also personaly go for max profit. Calculate how much the invention would cost minimum and set the price on that at least and use bpos to make the stuff. Twisted




No, that's not how it really works. That's how it really works in some imagined alternate reality that has been dreamt up by someone with a basic inability to understand math and economics. Almost everything that can be invented can be invented at a profit.

We'll use, for the umpteenth time, the adaptive invuln to show why you are an imbecile.

First, let's start with the limits.

There are, at absolute maximum, 20 BPOs for adaptive invulns. One adaptive invuln BPO can produce, at an absolute maximum, just under 470 units per month in an efficient assembly array, or 540 units per month in a rapid assembly array.

This means that, if EVERY BPO that ever was is being used in perfect production at a rapid assembly array, and every resulting unit is brought to market, the BPOs are introducing 10800 units per month to the market. Let's assume they are all going to Jita.

The average daily trade volume for adaptive invulns in Jita over the last month is 6515. So, for every MONTH that goes by, EVERY BPO that has ever existed, under optimal conditions, can introduce 1.65 DAYS worth of units to the Jita market.

Alternatively: 195,000 units are needed per month.
BPOs can supply 10,800 at an absolute max.

Where do the rest come from?

The answer is obviously, "They're coming from inventors."

Now, here's where your world and reality diverge. According to you, these can't possibly be invented at a profit because there are BPOs that exist. So, in your world, hundreds of inventors are eating a loss on 185,000 units of adaptive invulns a month.

Why would they do that? To keep the price low out of the goodness of their hearts?

Back in reality, they're doing it because it's profitable to do it. It's profitable to do it because the vast majority of the market is being supplied by invention, so the vast majority of the units brought to market have invention costs passed onto the consumer in their sell price, and 95% of the time, there are no BPO-produced units available.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#144 - 2012-05-08 14:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Morgan Dinn wrote:

Tough adding volume would just show tht the person owning the bpo could make more and get more profit while the inventor would just get amount of profit. Or do you wanna think this on the CCP scale?

Oh god...
You NEED the volume before anything else if you wana talk about supply/demand. This is so stupid, I feel ashamed for you that you rly want to be a smartass and dont even get that... in your shuttle world a T2 BPO (if its going to be linear) would have a unlimited capacity. But with just 20 BPO`s in the game each, you cant build as many items as you want, thats why volume is important in this case. for example 100 shuttles getting sold per day, all BPO`s in the game make 5 Shuttles per day, so even if the Shuttle BPO owners hate isk and sell for less than they could and strictly undercut the other shuttle-sellers, how can you control the enitre market with these 5 shuttles?

Morgan Dinn wrote:

Inventors vs BPO owners. I have a faint memory about a chart that showed that 35% (or something like that) is made from bpos. Tough I'm not totaly sure about it. And I'm too tired to go find it.

So 65% are made via invention, wich is according to your shuttle theory impossible. You got that?

Morgan Dinn wrote:

Thats how it realy works. ]


No it really is not, otherwise nobody would invent anything with profit, wich is obviously not the case.

shar'ra phone home
Jajas Helper
#145 - 2012-05-08 15:01:57 UTC
¨Pretty sure these bpo haters have never done inventions... heck.. even never produced anything"

Inferno do _stuff _with _stuff _to imitate the _stuff _you could do faster with the old stuff

-stuff-
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#146 - 2012-05-08 16:27:56 UTC
Jajas Helper wrote:
¨Pretty sure these bpo haters have never done inventions... heck.. even never produced anything"


Just a note that I do not hate BPOs Bear
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#147 - 2012-05-08 16:34:07 UTC
Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#148 - 2012-05-08 16:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.


sup brewlar




Morgan Dinn wrote:

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(

Are you seriously trying to convicne us that you own a T2 BPO, but as the fair sportsman that you are, you still cry to remove them?

get help

shar'ra phone home
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#149 - 2012-05-08 17:16:04 UTC
I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs. Any of those. Don't care which.

And no I'm not the guy who ever you are trying to make me be Lol
Haulie Berry
#150 - 2012-05-08 17:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(



Do you not understand that BPOs have asset value?

How is it possible for any one person to own this much of the world's share of stupidity? Save some for someone else, yeesh.

Could you be any more obvious about your agenda?

You presented an argument. I blew your argument out of the water with incontrovertible math, and your response is, "Well, even though my argument has been shown to be completely wrong, let's remove them anyway just because."

This makes it obvious that you don't care about the wellfare of the system or whether or not invention works. You've probably never even plugged in an invention job in your life. Someone else has something shiny, you don't, and so you're jealous.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#151 - 2012-05-08 17:36:39 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(



Do you not understand that BPOs have asset value?

How is it possible for any one person to own this much of the world's share of stupidity? Save some for someone else, yeesh.

Could you be any more obvious about your agenda?

You presented an argument. I blew your argument out of the water with incontrovertible math, and your response is, "Well, even though I'm completely wrong, let's remove them anyway just because."

This makes it obvious that you don't care about the wellfare of the system or whether or not invention works. You've probably never even plugged in an invention job in your life. You're clearly just jealous that other people have things.


Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything Lol

There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so.

And I did check some numbers yes. You are correct you can make pretty good isks out from invention on some stuff not all. Tough it will not change my opinion that something needs to be done to the originals.
Haulie Berry
#152 - 2012-05-08 17:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Morgan Dinn wrote:


Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything Lol


http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/64763/2012/04/what-is-this-i-dont-even-spiderman.jpg



Quote:
There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so.


The last bastion of the idiot who has finally realized how stupid he is: "Well, err, uhh... look, man, everyone has an opinion, right? There's no right or wrong answer, duuuude."

Stupid and spineless. Some people have all the luck. Lol
Ore Bunny
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2012-05-08 17:49:21 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
I would be fine with either having more T2 originals or removing T2 BPOs.



suuuuure... makes a lot of sense... mind linking us the sell-thread of these said prints?
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#154 - 2012-05-08 17:58:27 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:


Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything Lol


http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/64763/2012/04/what-is-this-i-dont-even-spiderman.jpg



Quote:
There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so.


The last bastion of the idiot who has finally realized how stupid he is: "Well, err, uhh... look, man, everyone has an opinion, right? There's no right or wrong answer, duuuude."

Stupid and spineless. Some people have all the luck. Lol


It's actualy funny how intellectual you think you are and then you go so low as calling someone stupid, spineles and putting out links of what ever and actualy think you won something and ignore some parts anyways. Basicly your just a greedy *****.

Do you know what happens to greedy ****? If you don't, think about it Blink

I'm done here as this realy aint moving in any direction.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-05-08 18:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Morgan Dinn wrote:


I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs

right-click/trash?


See, I hoenstly dont think anyone ITT is scared that T2 BPO`s are ever getting touched. like you say, if they would ever change their mind and acutally touch em, I dont think they would need some crybabys to make threads about how jelly they are, either.

EDIT:
also against your shuttle disaster, any counter-post can be seen as a win ;)

shar'ra phone home
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#156 - 2012-05-08 18:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lara Dantreb
Morgan Dinn wrote:
I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs. Any of those. Don't care which.

And no I'm not the guy who ever you are trying to make me be Lol


Invention is not always profitable because there is a lot of competition : everyone and his dog invent and the dogs aren't very skilled for the maths involved in the process, producing at a loss or feeding a saturated market...

So what you want is more competition : removing T2 bpo or being able to compete with in terms of ME, or seeding more new T2 bpos. Are you really thinking that this will benefit to producers ? Everyone will do the same thing at the same time and the profits will be even thinner. (See the T1 market...)

T2 Bpos are high-end items, which can't be purchased before a long and successfull business plan. There are ways to make isks from industry, not only T2 stuff. In December 2011- January 2012, I made a gross 60 Bil profit from PI. Enough to purchase a T2 bpo.

Those who whine about T2 bpos are imo short sighted industrialists and low-skilled businessmen.

There is no issue with T2 bpo : proof :

- Are T2 items too much expansive ? No
- Are T2 items in shortage ? No
- With their limited supply, can T2 bpo saturate a market ? No because the overproduction comes from invention. (hundreds of inventors doing the same thing at the same time)
- Would the removal of T2 bpos make the impopular mods and ships popular ? No because the reasons why they are in low demand are due to game mechanics.
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.



Spend less time whining in forums and more on your excel sheets

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#157 - 2012-05-08 20:07:18 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:
[
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.


It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.
Haulie Berry
#158 - 2012-05-08 20:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Lara Dantreb wrote:
[
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.


It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.


Zero people who were given BPOs by a CCP employee still have them today, so I'm not sure why you keep clinging to that assertion like it's a security blanket. I will assume it's for lack of anything relevant to say.

Also, in point of fact, it WAS a huge investment (of time) to win them in the lottery.

Still waiting to hear which items would become attractive to invent if it weren't for BPOs. As previously noted, interceptors would not become attractive options, so please try again.
sodney
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2012-05-08 20:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: sodney
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Lara Dantreb wrote:
[
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.


It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.


Are you ever gona drop this realy reeaaaaly dumb argument? When people don`t aggree with you, it`s not necesarry because you didnt spam the same crap not often enough.

a lottery is 100% random aka 100% fair. If you say CCP did cheat in these lotteries, bring evidences already or dont bring that topic.
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#160 - 2012-05-08 21:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lara Dantreb
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Lara Dantreb wrote:
[
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.


It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.



In my case this have never happened. In all cases except one this have never happened. You are only good at insulting people or what ?

I am the argument against your discourse: I bought all my T2 BPOS ! Smile

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---