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the importance of T2 BPOs
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Testerxnot Sheepherder
Get Isk or Die Mining
#121 - 2012-05-05 21:35:53 UTC
whiners just jelly they aint got one
Katalci
Kismesis
#122 - 2012-05-06 04:32:09 UTC
waaah waaah people with money can make more money nerf nerf nerf whine whine whine
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
#123 - 2012-05-07 06:14:41 UTC

Without BPO then T2 would be much more expensive.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#124 - 2012-05-07 06:19:40 UTC
Zelda Wei wrote:

Without BPO then T2 would be much more expensive.


Not realy, plus CCP has plans on lowering invention cost
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#125 - 2012-05-07 07:35:33 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Zelda Wei wrote:

Without BPO then T2 would be much more expensive.


Not realy, plus CCP has plans on lowering invention cost



do they? i thought it was just pushing datacores into the hands of FW'ers

OMG when can i get a pic here
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#126 - 2012-05-07 10:20:13 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Zelda Wei wrote:

Without BPO then T2 would be much more expensive.


Not realy, plus CCP has plans on lowering invention cost



do they? i thought it was just pushing datacores into the hands of FW'ers


that means datacore prices will drop quite abit which means invention cost will drop which means invention will be cheaper.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-05-07 14:11:34 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:


that means datacore prices will drop quite abit which means invention cost will drop which means invention will be cheaper.


so far Datacores only did cost RP. now they will also cost isk (or LP). They will have a better availability than now obviously. They might drop in price, but I wouldn`t count on it.

shar'ra phone home
Shaen Vesuvius
Redcoats
#128 - 2012-05-07 15:00:10 UTC
T2 BPO are / were not a mistake because they give some people an advantage on certain items of the market.

There are lots of other things to invent that those people won't or can't bother with which make good money.

Fuelprices up 40% in 3 months time.

Other things to do...

T2 Gun rigs invented before buff..sold after

Stay sharp, adapt and don't look back.

Also, people are lazy, make good use of that.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#129 - 2012-05-07 15:44:31 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:


that means datacore prices will drop quite abit which means invention cost will drop which means invention will be cheaper.


so far Datacores only did cost RP. now they will also cost isk (or LP). They will have a better availability than now obviously. They might drop in price, but I wouldn`t count on it.



reduced 'free' datacores by half, while adding a cost to whats left and then making people use lp to buy from a new supply chain, which is with the changes in fw constantly going to be in a state of flux(stations getting locked out etc) isnt going to mean cheaper datacores imo.

id bet on increased costs as they swing from over supply to under supply constantly. much in the same way as many items on the market, people swap to different items as profits drop.

OMG when can i get a pic here
beor oranes
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#130 - 2012-05-07 19:58:42 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production.

Problem solved.


That is possibly the best suggestion I have heard. It's not needed but its actually pretty good.

T2 BPO's only dominate the market when the volume sold of the item is low, the rest are dominated by invention. And if you look at ships that have no T2 BPO quite a few of them are unprofitable and that cant be blamed on T2 BPO's.

Hopefully if the changes to moon-goo that has been suggested by Soundwave could really change up the whole T2 market.
Haulie Berry
#131 - 2012-05-07 20:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
beor oranes wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production.

Problem solved.


That is possibly the best suggestion I have heard. It's not needed but its actually pretty good.

T2 BPO's only dominate the market when the volume sold of the item is low, the rest are dominated by invention. And if you look at ships that have no T2 BPO quite a few of them are unprofitable and that cant be blamed on T2 BPO's.

Hopefully if the changes to moon-goo that has been suggested by Soundwave could really change up the whole T2 market.


But what does that do to benefit invention?

All that would do is **** all over the most useless of the T2 BPOs. Even if you removed T2 BPOs in their entirety, I still wouldn't want to invent, say, 50mm reinforced steel plate IIs, so how would this "pretty good" (by which I mean "arbitrary and naively implemented") suggestion actually benefit the inventor?

This will be the third time I have presented this challenge. So far, nobody has even attempted to furnish an answer:

Please name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become an attractive option in the absence of T2 BPOs.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#132 - 2012-05-08 06:25:49 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
beor oranes wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production.

Problem solved.


That is possibly the best suggestion I have heard. It's not needed but its actually pretty good.

T2 BPO's only dominate the market when the volume sold of the item is low, the rest are dominated by invention. And if you look at ships that have no T2 BPO quite a few of them are unprofitable and that cant be blamed on T2 BPO's.

Hopefully if the changes to moon-goo that has been suggested by Soundwave could really change up the whole T2 market.


But what does that do to benefit invention?

All that would do is **** all over the most useless of the T2 BPOs. Even if you removed T2 BPOs in their entirety, I still wouldn't want to invent, say, 50mm reinforced steel plate IIs, so how would this "pretty good" (by which I mean "arbitrary and naively implemented") suggestion actually benefit the inventor?

This will be the third time I have presented this challenge. So far, nobody has even attempted to furnish an answer:

Please name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become an attractive option in the absence of T2 BPOs.


The second time I answer you that any tech 2 item would come attractive. Prices would change to invention prices which would mean that inventing any item would be profitable cause it would be the only way to do the items.

And atm you are locked out on all tech 2 items that have tech 2 bpos in the game. No point inventing if you are trying to make profit. The bpo owners can undercut you anytime and you will be forced to sell on loss if you want to sell the items.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#133 - 2012-05-08 09:19:54 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:


Prices would change to invention prices which would mean that inventing any item would be profitable cause it would be the only way to do the items.


There are plenty of items and ships RIGHT NOW on the market that would make negative profit if you would produce them even with a max researched T2 BPO, impossible according your theory, plz explain.

Quote:
And atm you are locked out on all tech 2 items that have tech 2 bpos in the game. No point inventing if you are trying to make profit. The bpo owners can undercut you anytime and you will be forced to sell on loss if you want to sell the items


basicly your calling everyone a liar who is making isk with invention right now?
http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?blueprint=Cap+Recharger+II+Blueprint&ML=-4&PL=-4&RAP=1&F60=1&P=1
1 item of 10.000 that make profit with invention. Seriously why do you feel posting if you dont even do the numbers...Roll

only very certain, low demanded items sell below invention costs and most of them even sell below T2 production costs (inflatened)

You also seem to not know that T2 BPO`s have a very limited output wich is by far lower than the demand is (yea bring the 3-4 exceptions again....)

shar'ra phone home
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#134 - 2012-05-08 13:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Dinn
Well now

Here goes.

Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks.

The lottery was kind for us and we got an BPO for our selfs and we used few million isks to research it to me10 and cause wanted a copy we started invention and got a me-4 BPC after 4 tries so I consumed 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores.

Oh yeah I also need some skills.

Took me 15 days to train the production effiency to 5 and ship engineering to 3 so I can make the shuttle. Also I had to train mechanical engineering to 5, ship engineering to 5 and encryptions to 5 which too me another 45 days.

On to the building. I have friend in caldary navy so the station service will be free.

Using the BPO
I had to get 2018 units of tritanium and wait few hours and the ship was done.
This totals to: 2018 units of trit

Using invention
I had to start invention, get 3000 units of tritanium and few other equipment and a lab 4 mechanical engineering datacores and 4 ship engineerin datacores.
This totals to: 3000 units of trit, 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores


Now I was wondering... I could sell the ship with 2600 isks. That a around 28% of profit.
Then I realized that I need to sell the other thing also and I can't go lower than 3000 isks cause it cost way more than 3000 to make the thing.
So I this clear enough for you what I'm trying to say and what this is all about.
Tough everything effects everything and demand verus supply effects the prices BUT the BPO owner can ALWAYS undercut the inventors. And what ever you say will no change that. These are the game mechanics. This is how it works atm.
Haulie Berry
#135 - 2012-05-08 13:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Well now

Here goes.

Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks.

The lottery was kind for us and we got an BPO for our selfs and we used few million isks to research it to me10 and cause wanted a copy we started invention and got a me-4 BPC after 4 tries so I consumed 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores.

Oh yeah I also need some skills.

Took me 15 days to train the production effiency to 5 and ship engineering to 3 so I can make the shuttle. Also I had to train mechanical engineering to 5, ship engineering to 5 and encryptions to 5 which too me another 45 days.

On to the building. I have friend in caldary navy so the station service will be free.

Using the BPO
I had to get 2018 units of tritanium and wait few hours and the ship was done.
This totals to: 2018 units of trit

Using invention
I had to start invention, get 3000 units of tritanium and few other equipment and a lab 4 mechanical engineering datacores and 4 ship engineerin datacores.
This totals to: 3000 units of trit, 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores


Now I was wondering... I could sell the ship with 2600 isks. That a around 28% of profit.
Then I realized that I need to sell the other thing also and I can't go lower than 3000 isks cause it cost way more than 3000 to make the thing.
So I this clear enough for you what I'm trying to say and what this is all about.
Tough everything effects everything and demand verus supply effects the prices BUT the BPO owner can ALWAYS undercut the inventors. And what ever you say will no change that. These are the game mechanics. This is how it works atm.



Wow. It's like Brewlar left, had a full frontal lobotomy, and came back as this guy.

Hey, stupid: You forgot about volume.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#136 - 2012-05-08 13:22:06 UTC
Well I presented my point of view with something on it so you do better then Haulie. Convince me that me and other players are wrong and make your case. Cool
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#137 - 2012-05-08 13:27:23 UTC
Haulie Berry interceptors are common ships that invention where invention is raped by the OP T2BPO. I all ready said this too you.
Jajas Helper
#138 - 2012-05-08 13:32:10 UTC
Quote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Well now

Here goes.

Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks.

The lottery was kind for us and we got an BPO for our selfs and we used few million isks to research it to me10 and cause wanted a copy we started invention and got a me-4 BPC after 4 tries so I consumed 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores.

Oh yeah I also need some skills.

Took me 15 days to train the production effiency to 5 and ship engineering to 3 so I can make the shuttle. Also I had to train mechanical engineering to 5, ship engineering to 5 and encryptions to 5 which too me another 45 days.

On to the building. I have friend in caldary navy so the station service will be free.

Using the BPO
I had to get 2018 units of tritanium and wait few hours and the ship was done.
This totals to: 2018 units of trit

Using invention
I had to start invention, get 3000 units of tritanium and few other equipment and a lab 4 mechanical engineering datacores and 4 ship engineerin datacores.
This totals to: 3000 units of trit, 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores


Now I was wondering... I could sell the ship with 2600 isks. That a around 28% of profit.
Then I realized that I need to sell the other thing also and I can't go lower than 3000 isks cause it cost way more than 3000 to make the thing.
So I this clear enough for you what I'm trying to say and what this is all about.
Tough everything effects everything and demand verus supply effects the prices BUT the BPO owner can ALWAYS undercut the inventors. And what ever you say will no change that. These are the game mechanics. This is how it works atm.




here is a clue:
If its not profitable, why did you invent it?

I have been doing inventions for a few years now:
-Never had an "omg no succes on all my inventions, ccp must have ninja nerfed it" - over 1000s of inventions the averages are solid
-Never had issues with people undercutting me to the point that i didn't make the profit i was going for
-Never had issues selling my ****
-Never ever did i feel competition
-NEVER EVER did i bother to invent something that didn't make a profit

1) Start up a spreadsheet, and work out your profit margins ( nothing you put in is "free because you mined it, got it from someone").
2) Put in the time to do those inventions
3) Put the bpcs in the oven
4) ???
5) Profit

And trust me T2bpo owners are not going to sell their t2bpo produced modules/ammo below your price because its easier to sell, it would cut in their profit aswell.

so please tell me why you are so butthurt.... or are wasting your time crying

On building ships:
without T2 bpos, you will have the same "crap" profits from inventing because it is just to easy to fill up the market, the problem isn't T2 bpos, its not enough ships blowing up - competing with bpo owners or with people who invent- you're not going to make more profit from them.

So this comes down to:
i'm butthurt someone is making profit of ships and damn you all, its not me so i'm mad!
(sounds about right?)

Inferno do _stuff _with _stuff _to imitate the _stuff _you could do faster with the old stuff

-stuff-
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#139 - 2012-05-08 13:45:45 UTC
how suprising, brewlar wakes up right after somebody made post that is bad enough that it could come from brewlar himselfRoll

your shuttle theory is funny but has nothing to do with the whole thing. it completly ignores Volume (wich makes it really bad already) and that somebody who is aiming for max profits would never sell for less than he could get.

Ignore that it's a game, you just showed us that you have some serious logical barriers about business that you have to master before you can even understand why your shuttle theory is that bad.


shar'ra phone home
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#140 - 2012-05-08 14:03:12 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
how suprising, brewlar wakes up right after somebody made post that is bad enough that it could come from brewlar himselfRoll

your shuttle theory is funny but has nothing to do with the whole thing. it completly ignores Volume (wich makes it really bad already) and that somebody who is aiming for max profits would never sell for less than he could get.

Ignore that it's a game, you just showed us that you have some serious logical barriers about business that you have to master before you can even understand why your shuttle theory is that bad.




Well I've been reading these posts so much already that I don't even know where I type my answers :P
Tough adding volume would just show tht the person owning the bpo could make more and get more profit while the inventor would just get amount of profit. Or do you wanna think this on the CCP scale?

Inventors vs BPO owners. I have a faint memory about a chart that showed that 35% (or something like that) is made from bpos. Tough I'm not totaly sure about it. And I'm too tired to go find it.

Plus the shuttle thing more about mechanics. Thats how it realy works. how you sell the stuff is a completely different thing I do know that. I would also personaly go for max profit. Calculate how much the invention would cost minimum and set the price on that at least and use bpos to make the stuff. Twisted