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the importance of T2 BPOs
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#21 - 2012-04-05 19:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Lets face it T2 BPO was a huge mistake and everyday they remain in game is proof that EVE is unfair and that players/corps that are CCP pets will continue to be given unfair advantages to keep them ahead in game. CCP will never shed it's corrupt small game developer image untill it cleans up it's gameplay and stops dishing out prizes to friends of the company that give them massive advantages in game. Remove T2 BPO make eve an even playing field.

I've known at least 2 people in RL that stopped playing EVE as a direct result of T2 BPO's. Why would they want to play a game where some chosen player gets to mis an entire step of gameplay? T2 BPO is the reason I would never touch manufacture with a barge pole.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#22 - 2012-04-05 19:38:13 UTC
Caractacus Dio wrote:
BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs.

Inventors can diversify.


Owing a T2 BPO locks you character from performing invention? I did not know this.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ting Mei
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-04-05 20:02:23 UTC
Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ?

Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ...

Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today

Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#24 - 2012-04-05 20:35:10 UTC
Ting Mei wrote:
Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ?

Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ...

Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today

Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.



is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#25 - 2012-04-05 22:40:28 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Ting Mei wrote:
Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ?

Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ...

Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today

Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.



is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.


Shut up, please. Nothing of what you said made any relevence to gifted items.

Most T2 were given out by CCP to select players in ''lottery'' that was rigged. Yes some of the lottery were fair and others not. Alongside this CCP also handed out T2 BPO as drops or just plain straight into players assets. THIS is F'ing unfair.

The BPO's should be removed from game and the player owning it reinbursd the lottery research points that BPO cost. EVE is rigged it's not an even game.

I do hope Sony Reps catch wind of stuff like this and know exactly the type of company CCP is.
Acorn FB
THE GOLDEN KNIGHTS
Shadow Ultimatum
#26 - 2012-04-05 23:25:42 UTC
I think a several things are important to consider about the T2 BPOs

1. They are most definitely "unfair" they are roughly equivalent to owning an industrial plant in the real world where you are grandfathered into being able to pollute freely and use prison labor, but you can not expand your plant in any largely significant way (rapid diminishing returns from ME / PE). You can also sell your plant and its rights to some other party and it retains its rights.

2. They are currently ridiculously overpriced compared to their true economic value, they tend to be valued multiple years on the total profit of the BPO - not the lower of the delta between the BPC vs. BPO profit or actual profit and use no time value of money in their calculation (do not forget a loan in Eve could run 3% or higher per month, meaning a 3% per month discount rate these things would never break even).

3. Because of point 2 BPOs are owned by those who highly value their "collector's value" and the constant return is nice perk or the owners are idiots who do not realize they could sell the darn things and reinvest the profits into many more profitable routes.

4. BPOs add a layer of low cost suppliers where they exist and severally distort the market where they can supply a large percentage of the total demand at the resulting equilibrium price point. BPO builder are capable of building at a lower price than is profitable for a BPC user and BPOs used all they down to their breakeven point. This does have an upside of providing some T2 supply where CCP forgot to make the item in question not suck.

5. Maybe almost as unfair as the cost advantage is the BPO owners do not have to suffer carpel tunnel, unlike the inventor/BPC manufacturer. The BPO is a handful of clicks and a large pile of resources for a month long run, an invention to BPC to manufacture could be a massive amount of clicks per month and extra annoyance (data cores, ick).

6. Another problem with BPOs value are massively distorted from nerf / buffs - that 40b BPO in your assets could be cut in half because they nerfed your T2 item or buffed its competition, or just imagine the value of the large neutron blaster BPO before and after the recent buff.

I have always thought that the tech 2 BPO were left in but the without ways obtain the new ones was dumb, they should figured out a way to phase them out of existence at the same time they added invention.

My suggestion to remove them would be they are replace by 2 items: a non useable object that says BPO for X Tech Item (collector piece) and a special BPC with 2 years worth of runs at the BPOs current ME/PE.

Just my thoughts
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-04-05 23:38:18 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:

is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.

T2 BPOs circumvent an entire facet of gameplay for a minority of players at the expense of the larger community and any future new player is at a distinct disadvantage. They never should have been allowed to remain in the game the day invention was...invented.
Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-06 06:13:46 UTC
waaa, waaa, waa, something happened in the game YEARS ago, that doesnt effect me but i wanna complain about it now..

GIVE SHRIKE A NEW TITAN, THEY ARENT SUPPOSED TO DIE!!

Waa Waa waa, i dont have a titan, remove titans from the game.
waa waa waa, i dont have a state raven, remove them from the game.

waa waa waa, i dont have a Freki, Freki's were gifted by ccp, remove them from the game!!
waa waa waa i dont have a Mimir, Mimir's were gifted by ccp, remove them from the game!!
ECT ECT ECT

Ps i dont have a t2 bpo, and dont have plans to buy/own a t2 bpo.
Thalysia
The Ahool Guard
#29 - 2012-04-06 07:00:26 UTC
I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion.

BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's.

I do not know the exact numbers, but let's say the bpo builds a product twice as fast as a bpc, good so the owner can get twice as much products on one slot. Big deal.

If the owner of the bpo would like to setup ship production for one month he needs components. There are 2 options: building components, or buying them. Building components takes up slottime and thus making the bpo owner produce less because he needs to utilize the other slots for the manufacturing of components. If he would buy the components of the market, he loses margin, and thus an advantage of owning the BPO and being able to set it up to produce one month long.

If he does setup for a whole month, he risks that prices of moonmaterials went down at such an amount, that the prices of the endproduct follow that decline.......again cutting in his her margin.
All and all reasons why I don't think they have a very big advantage over inventors.

As for the BPO owner being bound to building one product, and inventors being able to follow the market. True, and also true that a BPO owner can invent to follow the market too. But by doing so, the (so called) unfairness/advantage the BPO owner has disappears like snow in the desert.

And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment.

tl;dr : T2 BPO owners have advantages, so do BPC inventors, and I don't think they should be removed. By the way I invent BPC's and I do not own any T2 BPO's.
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-04-06 10:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Eva Volkova
Thalysia wrote:
I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion.


Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.

thats not unfair?

The problem is me. The bpo can be researched to the point invention is more expensive than the cost of the BPO so u cant compete in a market that the final product is more expensive that your cost.

Thalysia wrote:

BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's. ...


... And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment.


Never heard of alts ?
You can have 3 characters per acount.
With the money you earn with that single BPO you can buy more characters / mantain more acounts = more free production slots / more free invention. BPO T2 is free money.

So u can NEVER compete with a BPO owner. He with less effort makes more money.

Ways to solve it?

- Removal
- Make BPO - BPCs with x runs
- Make BPO T2 default me -25 / -50 so they are more expensive than invention.
- Reintroduce BPO T2 (lottery / invention chance etc)

EvA
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#31 - 2012-04-06 11:09:02 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Ting Mei wrote:
Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ?

Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ...

Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today

Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.



is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.


Shut up, please. Nothing of what you said made any relevence to gifted items.

Most T2 were given out by CCP to select players in ''lottery'' that was rigged. Yes some of the lottery were fair and others not. Alongside this CCP also handed out T2 BPO as drops or just plain straight into players assets. THIS is F'ing unfair.

The BPO's should be removed from game and the player owning it reinbursd the lottery research points that BPO cost. EVE is rigged it's not an even game.

I do hope Sony Reps catch wind of stuff like this and know exactly the type of company CCP is.



so ccp are going to reimburse the isk people paid other people for them, as most bpo's are now in the hands of other people, many change hands weekly. much like the state ravens mentioned in my post are not owned by teh people they were origanly handed out to.
ccp never handed them out as drops. if you are refering to the ccp roams from a few months back, they were t2 bpc's and were much discussed at the time.

t2 bpo's are not the problem, ship invention should be looked at along with buffing crap t2 mods. in that way more of those items woudl be produced from invention.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#32 - 2012-04-06 11:14:00 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:
Thalysia wrote:
I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion.


Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.

thats not unfair?

The problem is me. The bpo can be researched to the point invention is more expensive than the cost of the BPO so u cant compete in a market that the final product is more expensive that your cost.

Thalysia wrote:

BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's. ...


... And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment.


Never heard of alts ?
You can have 3 characters per acount.
With the money you earn with that single BPO you can buy more characters / mantain more acounts = more free production slots / more free invention. BPO T2 is free money.

So u can NEVER compete with a BPO owner. He with less effort makes more money.

Ways to solve it?

- Removal
- Make BPO - BPCs with x runs
- Make BPO T2 default me -25 / -50 so they are more expensive than invention.
- Reintroduce BPO T2 (lottery / invention chance etc)

EvA



the reason why absolutions and sleps arnt not produced via invention isnt to do with a t2 bpo. its to do with why the hell would you use one, when a t3 is better and a tier 3 bc does the same damage at half the cost. if more people used teh ship, demand woudl be higher and more would be produced via invention, its very simple issue of supply and demand, they suck in there current incarnation and demand is low. if you look at other examples from the twitter feed, you can see this in action

i own an abso, but id much rather have fun in my oracle.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#33 - 2012-04-06 12:21:03 UTC
Yes the figures released for T2BPO just make me rage even further think there are people out there making 80% of the market at zero effort all from knowing a CCP dev when the game was even more corrupt than it is now. 80% of the market for all those years to fund an allince that fights in a bullcrap war that CCP decides who wins by the massive isk dumps they give through T2BPO.
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-04-06 12:29:52 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:


the reason why absolutions and sleps arnt not produced via invention isnt to do with a t2 bpo. its to do with why the hell would you use one, when a t3 is better and a tier 3 bc does the same damage at half the cost. if more people used teh ship, demand woudl be higher and more would be produced via invention, its very simple issue of supply and demand, they suck in there current incarnation and demand is low. if you look at other examples from the twitter feed, you can see this in action

i own an abso, but id much rather have fun in my oracle.


The real reason its they are selling those ship below invention cost.

1- they are crazy and whant to loose money.

2- they use t2 BPO

As stats from @CCP_Diagoras show. Number 2 is the cause.
Thalysia
The Ahool Guard
#35 - 2012-04-06 12:39:56 UTC
All pointless it seems.

Yes BPO's are unfair, yes they should be removed, yes I was stupid of me to even think about writing in one of those ever rerturning threads about why BPO's need to be removed.

I am going to sign all petitions I can find about this and hope they are removed. Then I can safely keep doing my invention, keep doing my T2 manufacturing, keep having the same profit I have now for the same effort, but sleeping better knowing all unfairness vanished out of New Eden.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#36 - 2012-04-06 13:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Eva Volkova wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:


the reason why absolutions and sleps arnt not produced via invention isnt to do with a t2 bpo. its to do with why the hell would you use one, when a t3 is better and a tier 3 bc does the same damage at half the cost. if more people used teh ship, demand woudl be higher and more would be produced via invention, its very simple issue of supply and demand, they suck in there current incarnation and demand is low. if you look at other examples from the twitter feed, you can see this in action

i own an abso, but id much rather have fun in my oracle.


The real reason its they are selling those ship below invention cost.

1- they are crazy and whant to loose money.

2- they use t2 BPO

As stats from @CCP_Diagoras show. Number 2 is the cause.


no they do not show that, thats your mind playing tricks on you.

there are a number of reasons, the producers are idiots, they mine minerials, they are free. be it t1 or t2 mins, they are free or have lowered cost due to the fact they mine them.. thats the biggest reason why stuff is cheaper. if you actually bothered to check, yourll find t2 items with no bpo that sell below the cost of the parts.

dont assume anything.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-04-06 14:00:31 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:


there are a number of reasons, the producers are idiots, they mine minerials, they are free. be it t1 or t2 mins, they are free or have lowered cost due to the fact they mine them.. thats the biggest reason why stuff is cheaper. if you actually bothered to check, yourll find t2 items with no bpo that sell below the cost of the parts.

dont assume anything.


I dont assume i have facts if most of a market is done with BPO is because its cheaper. If not the price will rise until Invention is profitable again.

A market can be under the cost of the parts for a time but it will rise in time.

If the market rise above the BPO T2 cost and Below Invention cost its because of the BPO T2.

Like nocxium these days the price was there because of the pax amarria when u removed it from the game price changed.

Will happen to those products if u remove BPO T2. The price will raise above invention cost.

EvA
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-04-06 14:05:32 UTC
Crappy ships and mods will not be manufactures as they have no value.
BPO are not causing this.

Once EVE tips 125 000 active players logged in, this will also lower the BPO effect.

Invrease production time on all!! Bpo/bpc, T1 and t2 by 500%. (not caps)

All problems solved.
Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-04-06 14:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizan
im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?

btw i have the 6 moons to produce the materials to build them.



OH OH OH, i know, maby i should shell out 90 BILLION isk for the bpo, then ill be RICH!!!!! my build cost would drop to 107mil! thats like an extra 500mil/month! would only take me 180months to pay the thing off, then ill really be racking up the cash!
Gatan Hahran
Brukterer
#40 - 2012-04-06 14:14:55 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Yes the figures released for T2BPO just make me rage even further think there are people out there making 80% of the market at zero effort all from knowing a CCP dev when the game was even more corrupt than it is now. 80% of the market for all those years to fund an allince that fights in a bullcrap war that CCP decides who wins by the massive isk dumps they give through T2BPO.


Just coming back from the afternoon tea with the 17 CCP devs i welcomed in my plaza.
I wanted to keep the story for myself, but i decided to tell you.
Before the tea i was delivering my T2 BPO jobs, making another few billions with an effortless click, but then the CCP devs and me started to observe a poor T2 ship inventor guy with admin tools. he had sold his last stuff for a big invention gamble to turn the things around.
The devs set his invention chance to 0% without him knowing and all his 60 invention jobs over 6 chars failed.
Man, we were laughing hysterically and high-fiving each other when he had to start mining in his bestower again with a T1 miner.
Always fun times with this cool dudes in my plaza.

true story.