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Now that the botters and RMTers are banned...
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Dharh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-04-05 00:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dharh
Real World Money for in game money is always going to exist in a popular game. It cannot be stopped. So CCP took a truly harmful thing that can destroy game economies and turned a major part of it into something that helps the economy. By funneling the ability to pay money for ISK through in game time there is a major net benefit. The only downside, the only real thing CCP can actually fight against, is RMT.

People who can't see that have not seen how botting and cash for gold destroys games.

Best bet, the whiners in this thread are cheaters pissed off their not hard earned ISK and PLEX were confiscated.
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-04-05 00:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nub Sauce
Dharh wrote:
Real World Money for in game money is always going exist in a popular game. It cannot be stopped. So CCP took a truly harmful thing that can destroy game economies and turned a major part of it into something that helps the economy. By funneling the ability to pay money for ISK through game time there is a major net benefit. The only downside, the only real thing CCP can actually fight against, is RMT.

People who can't see that have not seen how botting and cash for gold destroys games.


I agree. PLEX is defintiely less harmful than illegal RMT. I have seen botting/RMT ruin games... far too many games. Which is why PLEX is a poison in my eyes.

The positive factor here is that the player driven market decides just how much damage PLEX does to the game. Which, due to that, is less damage than illegal RMT. And CCP gets the $$ rather than some turd ruining the game for his own personal gain. So PLEX ends up being a much less harmful poison than botting/RMT.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-04-05 00:41:27 UTC
Nub Sauce wrote:

Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


But that isn't what pay to win means.
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-04-05 00:44:02 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:

Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


But that isn't what pay to win means.


So spending extra real $$ (pay) to (to) gain power faster (win) than those who are just playing the game without spending extra $$ is not paying to win?
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#85 - 2012-04-05 00:45:47 UTC
In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?


Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.

Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?

Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.

About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#86 - 2012-04-05 00:48:10 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:
lol all the botters and RMTers?

But Goons are still here *shock*



Are you trying to insinuate that all Goons are botters and RMTers?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Ai Shun
#87 - 2012-04-05 00:54:52 UTC
Nub Sauce wrote:
Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-04-05 00:55:08 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?


Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.

Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?

Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.

About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience.


Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$.

The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage.

The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case.
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-04-05 00:58:44 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:
Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?


There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#90 - 2012-04-05 01:00:33 UTC
Nub Sauce wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?


Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.

Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?

Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.

About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience.


Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$.

The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage.

The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case.


But is it still an advantage when they lose so much? I mean it sounds an awful lot like a loss to me. At least I wouldn't be walking out of that thinking I won the week. Both parties are still able to purchase the same ship types, same mods, and same ammo. On that level both parties are still equal, the only difference is that one worked for his ships and one had somebody (possibly the underdog himself) do some work for him.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Ai Shun
#91 - 2012-04-05 01:07:41 UTC
Nub Sauce wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:
Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?


There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.


Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK.

Who won?

Nobody.

Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won?

Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#92 - 2012-04-05 01:11:11 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:
Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?


There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.


Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK.

Who won?

Nobody.

Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won?

Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me.

The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose.
Ai Shun
#93 - 2012-04-05 01:15:21 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose.


Assuming that PLEX for playtime did not make the capital to purchase the modules. But yeah, agreed in principle.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#94 - 2012-04-05 01:23:44 UTC
Scenario #2

We remove the plex seller with a person who purchases 2 extra accounts. Those 2 accounts are only there to make isk hand over fist. All isk generated goes directly to his main account to purchase ships and mods.

Underdog remains the underdog.

All of the above in the first scenario still plays out the same and the new opponent can still purchase parts just as fast as the plex seller.

Scenario #3

Pit the Plex seller with the guy with 2 accounts. Both can purchase the same tools. Both can recover at the same rate.


Is the Plex seller still at the advantage? Furthermore, is the 3 account person now playing a play to win game like WOT?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-04-05 01:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
A 5mill SP pilot in a mach is just a free killboard padding.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-04-05 01:27:47 UTC
People with 22 mining accounts or lap/research one man corps would dwindle.

Markets would get interesting.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-04-05 01:33:34 UTC
Actually PLEX was one of the smartest things CCP ever did.

And to kill your immediate response no I have never bought a PLEX.
It still doesn't change that fact it was a smart move by CCP.


EVERYBODY KNOWS
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#98 - 2012-04-05 01:59:23 UTC
Nub Sauce wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:

Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.


But that isn't what pay to win means.


So spending extra real $$ (pay) to (to) gain power faster (win) than those who are just playing the game without spending extra $$ is not paying to win?


Not at all, it simply gives you more spending power to buy the same things that everybody else has access to. It can still be destroyerd and gives no special benefits that is not accessible by someone else if they choose to purchase that item.

The ISK paid to that indivisual selling the PLEX or GTC comes from other players and its price is governed by market forces as you've said yourself. If it was play to win it would allow those selling them to gain access to in game benefits that others were denied.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Hatch Nasty
Solus Inter Astra
Independent.
#99 - 2012-04-05 02:42:19 UTC
Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.

I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?

Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.

Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
Ai Shun
#100 - 2012-04-05 03:26:27 UTC
Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.

I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?

Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.

Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?


+1

And thank you for offline training, CCP. It means I can train when I can't play; thus helping to put more players on an equal footing. Just like PLEX and all the other toys and tools ...