Intergalactic Summit

This thread is in response to Cpt. Rhiannon's post from "Vanquish the Devourer! 4.27.114":


Cpt. Rhiannon,

I could start by questioning whether the "idea that the Amarrian people have been chosen by God to bring other peoples to His light, if necessary by conquest and slavery" is one of the core beliefs of Amarrian religion or not: I'd say it's not, as it really is a very derived concept of Amarrian soteriology. But that's not the point made here, I guess. The point is, if I take you right, Cpt. Rhiannon, that this is a belief most Amarr keep close to their heart and that it is of central importance and deeply ingrained in how the Amarrian people deal with outsiders.

If you agree so far, I do admit that in the minds and hearts of most Amarrian citizens, whether they are pious laity or simply paying lip service to the faith - or even more worse are ambajzilan (Laity that thinks they would know Scripture), such an idea is at work.

The Amarrian religion, though, isn't one that is simply defined by what the people do and believe. Amarrian religion is prescriptive and normative and this is certainly one reason why this wide spread misconception about parts of the Amarrian religion, that you present here, arose. Let me explain the subtle differences:

1. "The Amarrian people are chosen by God."
Here the implication is, that if you're an Amarrian, then you're chosen by god. Actually, if you study Scripture closely you'll find another implication, that is: If you live righteous and in fear of God, then you're chosen by God.
Now, you didn't say "are", but "have been". I'm not sure you're aware of the difference here, but it really makes a point: It's a historical incident. It just so happens that the Amarrian people exhibited these qualities and thus the two get coincidentally conjoined. To this day, though, it's the clear position of the Amarrian churches that "right makes might" - and not the other way around, as the Bloodraiders and other adherents to Sani Sabikism hold. Amarrian religion is aware that this has been a historical contingency that an entire people lived like that:
The knowledge that good pedigree isn't a guarantee for someone to be a good human, someone who lives righteous and in fear of God, is something you do very well find in Amarrian religion, society and state, reflected e.g. in the fact that an Amarrian holder can fall into disgrace and as deep as ending up as a slave.

What this means is, that there are different layers of meaning to Amarr, that do overlap, but can come into conflict as well. If you say "the Amarrian people are chosen by God" and you don't see that this is nowadays to be understood as a tautology (The Amarrian people - understood as those people, that are chosen by God - are chosen by God) rather than an empirically interesting proposition (The Amarrian people - understood as those people of Amarrian ethnicity - are chosen by God), then you're merely demonstrating that you're not using the word as a competent speaker would. (To your consolation: few people within the Empire use this word competently, as I pointed out above.)

2."Chosen by God to bring other people to His light."
Again, here's an implication at work: If you are chosen by God, then you're chosen to bring other people to His light. This implication is, strictly speaking, not part of Amarrian religion. The Amarrian people were chosen among the sinners to be saved, simply because they were worthy to be saved. The 'mission' to bring other people to His light is something that was added as a responsibility to His chosen people in the course of our history with him. Still, the implication doesn't work: There's no necessity to it that a chosen of God has to bring other people to His light.

I said "responsibility to bring others to His light" and this is a very important point here: The Amarr aren't chosen to bring others to His light, it's rather that they have the responsibility to bring others to His light: To enable others to live a life in righteousness and fear of God. This might not sound so terribly different from one another, but the implications differ widely.

I am sure you must realize that to me an Empire allowing me to be free and independent only once I accept its Faith, and an Empire wishing to subjugate me in the name of salvation, pretty much amount to the same thing.

I realize that you do not see it that way, but for the Minmatar people, freedom conditional on bowing to your God is no freedom at all.

Theological debate on what the Amarrian Faith should say does not interest me very much, though I greatly applaud any and all efforts to remove Reclaiming from the Empire ideology. By force if necessary.

To have your faith. Small difference.

Well now, lets be fair about that last bit. It's not simply a matter of certain other races turning their back on God. There are a fair number of Amarrians who do that too.

"I now and forever renounce the Evil God
I will not obey His commands
I will not follow His followers
I will not fear His punishment"
- A Minmatar ritual of Renouncement, trad.

May I live a dutiful life
May I find my Fate and fulfill it
May my ancestors smile upon me
Today, and on the day of my death
- same as above

Listen I'll throw you a bone and say maybe the Reclaiming of the Matari in the way it was handled could have not been the best way. Some mistakes were made sure and perhaps sadly it set the trend for our relations.

That said however do you really want to risk angering God? Its not like you can escape you know. Its not like the Matari people can slip into some wormhole and hope He doesn't notice you. Its not like we are doing this for some profit mongering scheme like some people are quick to paint.

As a whole most Amarrians really do care for your spiritual well being and we don't want to see you punished in the next life.

Is suffering a while in this one tiny life time such a huge price to pay for true immortality or are the sons and daughters of the Matari afraid of the hereafter?

There is no 'your faith and my faith'.
There is Faith.
There's no 'your god' and 'my god',
no 'Amarrian god' and 'Minmatar god'.
Nor is there any other kind of god
There is God

What is, is because of Him
the first Cause
absolute Truth
and eternal Good

If you don't understand that, you know nothing
Especially not about the Amarrian religion

Your myths say next to nothing about the Amarrian religion and even less about what we have faith in. In so far it pertains to it, your teachings consist of misconceptions. Might does not make right, indeed, as I pointed out in my original post here the Amarrian doctrine is quite inverse: Right makes might. That's why all true might extends from the Lord - for His is ultimate Righteousness.

Incorrect.

Those who overcome great adversity held Faith in something beyond their immediate rational expectation. Those who have not been faced with great adversity pretend.

My understanding of the myths is indeed something like n'th hand - because it is understanding handed down by traditions. What you miss is that your understanding of God and the Scriptures is nothing but the same.

I am not telling you how to see your religion, mind you. I am simply telling you what my myths say about it. You can believe those myths or not - I do not care. You are not Rhiannon; I have no interest to proselytize and make you follow the Rhiannon Way. I do not believe your salvation, happiness, or anything else depends on it. Quite the opposite, according to my myths, your salvation depends on following your religion and indeed since you are one of the Evil God's, you should fear his punishment. I am not asking you to give up your religion. What I am saying is that because of that Faith, it is inevitable that we remain enemies.

If a Matari professes to follow his clan's ways, and claims those ways include slave raiding, I would question the length of his tradition. But if it turned out that the tradition is genuine, I would not call it "untrue". There are raider clans - though we do not like to talk about it. I might try and eradicate him and his kin, if necessary by force, hopefully rather by convincing them to marry or adopt or merge into other clans, but their Way would still be theirs. I might call it wrong or harmful, but I would not call it "not really Matari".

This probably sounds like nitpicking to you - what does it matter what I call it, if I want to get rid of it and if necessary by force? But I feel this is a core difference between Amarrians and Minmatar. We do not wish you to leave your religion and join ours. In fact, as has been pointed out in the original thread, it is more usual Matari make it hard for outsiders to join and resist the idea.