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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#181 - 2012-04-03 20:49:12 UTC
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.

i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp


I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy.


i didn't ask for an individual cases...dev blog said "loan money" ...if some1 is doing reimbursements out of corp wallet to an effected account would that cause issues?


This is getting a bit silly. I'm not going to get pigeonholed into telling you that reimbursements are ok and have people claim every time they get caught funding an isk selling operation that they're doing "reimbursements".

It's pretty simple. If you're involved in selling isk then yes you will be seen as being involved in selling isk. If something happens to you petition it.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#182 - 2012-04-03 20:50:29 UTC
Nice one...

Just remember, some of us do LOAN isk out to others, and I have given out bazillions out in the past. I can see false positives come about with this and GM's refusing to talk to you because you have had that tag applied. I know my account has had more than one tag applied (AND REMOVED) but as of yet I dont think RMT or Botting was one of them. Grimmi refuses to talk to me these days so god knows if he removed it all.

The main problem is that CCP doesnt make it easy enough for people wishing to take part in RMT to know they can do it with TimeCodes. I seen some users one day talking about buying isk (was a few years ago) and they were complaining about how much it would cost and it was more expensive than time codes!... When I suggesed it to them they didnt know how it worked. In all fairness it was a long while ago and CCP hadnt been selling isk for that long.

Open up your doors to people wanting to buy isk and explain to them how to do it. The buyers are the ones who enable these markets to continue.

In the past when escrow was around it was easy to spot isk sellers. These days it's not as transparent. I think some guys still do it via contracts by selling gear at a hugely overpriced rate, or selling it at a huge undervalued rate (so the person buying can then profit on the trade). You will probably never stamp it out, but making the users who want to buy isk more arware of the TimeCode is the best solution.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#183 - 2012-04-03 20:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
CRAP I REPLIED TOOO SOOOOOON

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#184 - 2012-04-03 20:52:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.

I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?

Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.


One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.


Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?




Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?

It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately.
It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.

Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.

As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.


Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse.
You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks.


You're wrong. We can move on.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
pewpsi
Of the Neutral Planet
#185 - 2012-04-03 20:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: pewpsi
YES! This makes me soooo happy!!! Absolutely hate botters and the damn people running them and spamming the market with their crap. They can go play WOW or F*** themselves.

CCP devs making me happy Big smile

You guys are doing great lately!! Good work!!
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-04-03 20:53:00 UTC
re:Vaerah Vahrokha

exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#187 - 2012-04-03 20:53:54 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Nice one...

Just remember, some of us do LOAN isk out to others, and I have given out bazillions out in the past. I can see false positives come about with this and GM's refusing to talk to you because you have had that tag applied. I know my account has had more than one tag applied (AND REMOVED) but as of yet I dont think RMT or Botting was one of them. Grimmi refuses to talk to me these days so god knows if he removed it all.

The main problem is that CCP doesnt make it easy enough for people wishing to take part in RMT to know they can do it with TimeCodes. I seen some users one day talking about buying isk (was a few years ago) and they were complaining about how much it would cost and it was more expensive than time codes!... When I suggesed it to them they didnt know how it worked. In all fairness it was a long while ago and CCP hadnt been selling isk for that long.

Open up your doors to people wanting to buy isk and explain to them how to do it. The buyers are the ones who enable these markets to continue.

In the past when escrow was around it was easy to spot isk sellers. These days it's not as transparent. I think some guys still do it via contracts by selling gear at a hugely overpriced rate, or selling it at a huge undervalued rate (so the person buying can then profit on the trade). You will probably never stamp it out, but making the users who want to buy isk more arware of the TimeCode is the best solution.


With this blog post we ran an in game splash ad to help direct people here so they know how to buy plex. There are other discussions on the table.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2012-04-03 20:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
CCP Sreegs wrote:

2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.

because you as the one who gave the loan are looking like an isk seller once the other party comes under scrutiny which means you do not only stand to lose your money but also your eve account
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#189 - 2012-04-03 20:54:41 UTC
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
re:Vaerah Vahrokha

exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction.


When this happens is the time I'd recommend getting mad about it. In all seriousness I can't defend a position that hasn't occurred.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#190 - 2012-04-03 20:55:15 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.

because you as the one who gives the loan are looking like an isk seller on ethe other party comes under scrutiny which means you do not only stand to lose your money but also your eve account


When this happens we'll talk.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-04-03 20:55:20 UTC
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#192 - 2012-04-03 20:57:45 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you.


CCP Stillman's the main man on this project.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Jim Luc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#193 - 2012-04-03 20:58:01 UTC
By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to security@ccpgames.com - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore.

Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs!
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-04-03 20:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Z2ZzzzZ2Z
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.

I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?

Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.


One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.


Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?




Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?

It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately.
It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.

Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.

As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.


Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse.
You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks.


You're wrong. We can move on.


wow...nice answer. sounds to me like some1 with a legit concern...in fact it sounds like the same concern i have. you'll forgive the /b/ if we don't just passively accept that ccp will take care of it... because ccp doesn't. your customer service/customer care is the issue here. i'm a customer with a bunch of accounts. none of which have been affected by this in any way. nor do i want them to be affected. Vaerah Vahrokha's question is a legit one. your refusal to properly answer, and answer with such ( i hate to say such tone but u basicly told them to "shut up" and me as well) shows just that deficiency
Riall
Doomheim
#195 - 2012-04-03 20:58:54 UTC
Quote:
Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt

I may have to make this my sig... Wait...

[center] "Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt"[/center]

[center] Keepin' it... me.[/center]

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#196 - 2012-04-03 20:59:11 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah.

Sreegs for empress!

Sreegs is very much a dude.
I know. But if he's empress, he'll get a crown and a fancy dress, and that's got to count for something… P
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#197 - 2012-04-03 21:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You're wrong. We can move on.


This looks like a bit of an elusive reply.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
re:Vaerah Vahrokha

exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction.


When this happens is the time I'd recommend getting mad about it. In all seriousness I can't defend a position that hasn't occurred.


But it had occurred, I even mailed about it at the address you provided (which I suppose by now is in some endless queue?).


Edit: I tried contacting *anyone* at CCP who had any tiny bit of power about customer care, all I got is endless circles of people pointing and escalating at each other. Nobody to frankly speak at their presence and be heard.

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Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2012-04-03 21:04:47 UTC
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:
I would say it's more likely they are deliberately mis-representing the facts for reasons of their own.

Not saying what those reasons might be but if I were you I would investigate these people for possible RMT infractions. Plus the ones who have responses like "Now I am not defending RMT but if you take action against it it fooks up the game for everyone". Blink

But you've already thought of that haven't you? Blink

And with just one additional level of tinfoil hattery, your 4 month old alt posting is in reality just trying to deflect away from yourself unto other people. Twisted
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#199 - 2012-04-03 21:05:08 UTC
Jim Luc wrote:
By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to security@ccpgames.com - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore.

Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs!


I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#200 - 2012-04-03 21:06:51 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.


Ok, it seems like we're thinking of two different scenarios here. What I thought you were originally suggesting was the following:

A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A suffers a punishment for being associated with RMTing (whether it's a ban, additional ISK removed, etc).

However, that quoted statement sounds like you actually meant this:

A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A does not get any kind of reimbursement, but suffers no CCP-imposed penalties beyond the fact that the person who borrowed their money no longer has it (just like if the person took the loan and refused to pay it back).

If you would confirm that you're only talking about the second scenario, then I agree that there is no issue with the policy.

Quote:
We will deal with situations as they arise and each one will be unique. That's the nature of this business.


And this is why many people are not happy with your GM actions: the fact that there's too much personal judgement and little confidence that rulings are consistent. Just look at this thread even, with people expressing (reasonable) concerns about favoritism and different punishments for different people. You know why that is? Because you haven't considered all of these hypotheticals and published clear procedures for how these cases will be handled.