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The solution to hiding from war in NPC corps? You decide.
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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#81 - 2012-04-03 21:16:03 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
^
Because someone made it so you wont play the game for 2 weeks... I know plenty like that idea.

Underlying problem is also that you can't war dec for legit reasons... EG: Industry. We war decc'd a one man corp and kept it up to move his out of a market. Mining bots stay in NPC's to avoid being targeted. (yes yes you can gank them...but more efficient to war dec em and keep them out of business longer.)

There are legit reasons for dec's besides you thinking someone wants "lulz"



We can't police bots. NPC or player. If you weren't screaming about NPC alts you would be screaming about 200,000 One man corps. If everyone in EVE "complied" and just blobbed up you would be screaming about power bloc's. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Easy for him is hard for you but you don't like "EVE is hard" when it's hard for you. Feel free to war dec me if you think you accomplished something by doing it. I'm at Jita IV 4, I don't need to undock to make ISK.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-04-03 21:35:41 UTC
No but an active community helping to enforce rules isn't a bad thing either. Just looking the other way or ignoring passing it off doesn't help... And if people wish to do so why make it more difficult?

And no were not discussing those issues. Were discussing people avoiding mechanics with little in the way of balance or consequence. Like I said I don't believe you should be able to dec an NPC corp... life shouldn't be so cushy though.
And what do you care anyway you stay docked up regardless to play eve how you like. Seems like war dec's dont impact you so why bother.

Like me complaining about titans... Have no impact on me so I can't really have much of an opinion now can I?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#83 - 2012-04-03 22:12:35 UTC
My point is, things are not divided as you suggest.

An NPC corp is in the game for a reason. its there to allow you to evade war Dec. In order to run Industry in high sec you need to be able to evade war dec. It's a light switch mechanic. Player corps allow you to engage in war dec. Both are mechanics. Both have a purpose. There are loads of small corps set up for industrial reasons, set up to avoid tax. It's a very target rich environment.

Sisohiv
CAS corp.
My Character. There for 6 years because she can mine and haul and not be war dec'ed. I'm not abusing anything. I risk the assets I want at risk. I don't risk the assets I don't want at risk. The mechanics in EVE are just fine.

If CCP want to allow everyone to be war dec? Sure, I say go for it. I aslo say make War Dec's a one month minimum. That way I can unsub my Industrial accounts while I am being griefed.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-04-03 22:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Simetraz wrote:
NPC corp is the same thing as a person NOT being in a corp.
THis is NOT a problem.

If the person doesn't want to deal with corporation Issues then why should they be required to be in a corp.

I have nothing against people wanting an individual experience in EVE.
They just shouldn't be given unfair advantages to do it, as it creates endless problems with pursuing legitimate pvp and moderating the economy.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-04-03 23:08:07 UTC
Skydell wrote:
My point is, things are not divided as you suggest.

An NPC corp is in the game for a reason. its there to allow you to evade war Dec. In order to run Industry in high sec you need to be able to evade war dec. It's a light switch mechanic. Player corps allow you to engage in war dec. Both are mechanics. Both have a purpose. There are loads of small corps set up for industrial reasons, set up to avoid tax. It's a very target rich environment.

Sisohiv
CAS corp.
My Character. There for 6 years because she can mine and haul and not be war dec'ed. I'm not abusing anything. I risk the assets I want at risk. I don't risk the assets I don't want at risk. The mechanics in EVE are just fine.

If CCP want to allow everyone to be war dec? Sure, I say go for it. I aslo say make War Dec's a one month minimum. That way I can unsub my Industrial accounts while I am being griefed.



They are not there to avoid war dec's they were intentioned to help get new players on their feet, and avoid getting ganked right off the bat.
You can run industry in high sec in a corp matter of fact you just proved a point I made early. I want you out of business one method would be to compete market v. market another would be to war dec you and curtail your manufacture ability.

War dec's aren't just for luls or kids looking to grief. Originally they were intentioned to give people in high sec a way a legal way to fight without concord intervention.

So one guy running 22 accounts for mining I want him to move or help my profits...boom war dec him. I can't do that if he has all the accts in NPC. You avoid this mechanic while a real corp does not... Why should you be allowed if you're engaging on the market just the same?

Don't like it? Move... pay someone else pay me/us? I dont care about your tears.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-04-03 23:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kattshiro wrote:
Skydell wrote:
My point is, things are not divided as you suggest.

An NPC corp is in the game for a reason. its there to allow you to evade war Dec. In order to run Industry in high sec you need to be able to evade war dec. It's a light switch mechanic. Player corps allow you to engage in war dec. Both are mechanics. Both have a purpose. There are loads of small corps set up for industrial reasons, set up to avoid tax. It's a very target rich environment.

Sisohiv
CAS corp.
My Character. There for 6 years because she can mine and haul and not be war dec'ed. I'm not abusing anything. I risk the assets I want at risk. I don't risk the assets I don't want at risk. The mechanics in EVE are just fine.

If CCP want to allow everyone to be war dec? Sure, I say go for it. I aslo say make War Dec's a one month minimum. That way I can unsub my Industrial accounts while I am being griefed.



They are not there to avoid war dec's they were intentioned to help get new players on their feet, and avoid getting ganked right off the bat.
You can run industry in high sec in a corp matter of fact you just proved a point I made early. I want you out of business one method would be to compete market v. market another would be to war dec you and curtail your manufacture ability.

War dec's aren't just for luls or kids looking to grief. Originally they were intentioned to give people in high sec a way a legal way to fight without concord intervention.

So one guy running 22 accounts for mining I want him to move or help my profits...boom war dec him. I can't do that if he has all the accts in NPC. You avoid this mechanic while a real corp does not... Why should you be allowed if you're engaging on the market just the same?

Don't like it? Move... pay someone else pay me/us? I dont care about your tears.

Do the wardec changes do anything to prevent corp hopping? If not then wardecs still aren't an effective solution to what you are attempting to do. The blog asks the question but doesn't give a concrete answer.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#87 - 2012-04-03 23:56:05 UTC
your two only real option,

Pick a side,

Or take a break from eve for a month or two..

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-04-04 00:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Just throwing this out there: 10% tax is NOT a punishment for being in a NPC corp. It's not even substantial. If tax is supposed to be their punishment, it should be more like 25% or higher.

I have an idea, howabout NPC corps sometimes declare war on other NPC corps. How often they do it is at their discretion (and is based on some hidden variables and modifiers they are given), but a general trend would be that NPC corps with higher tax rates get into less wars. So if you get in one with only a 5% - 10% tax rate, they'd pretty much be constantly at war, often with several corps at once. But if you get in one with, say, a 40% tax rate, they would almost never go to war.

That gives the power to the players to choose their playstyle, while still forcing them to make critical decisions revolving around their risk vs. reward aspect.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-04-04 00:24:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Just throwing this out there: 10% tax is NOT a punishment for being in a NPC corp. It's not even substantial. If tax is supposed to be their punishment, it should be more like 25% or higher.

I have an idea, howabout NPC corps sometimes declare war on other NPC corps. How often they do it is at their discretion (and is based on some hidden variables and modifiers they are given), but a general trend would be that NPC corps with higher tax rates get into less wars. So if you get in one with only a 5% - 10% tax rate, they'd pretty much be constantly at war, often with several corps at once. But if you get in one with, say, a 40% tax rate, they would almost never go to war.

That gives the power to the players to choose their playstyle, while still forcing them to make critical decisions revolving around their risk vs. reward aspect.

So make them worse in every possible way than player corps? I suppose if you want them empty, sure this seems like a valid solution. Though, one thing that you may be missing with the tax issue, in a good corp those taxes should be providing you some resource or benefit in return provided by the corp. In NPC, it's just gone with the wardec immunity as the only compensation. Saying that there is a "choice" of having much higher rates while still having the potential for war that is outside of your control, and really if it was in their control they wouldn't do it since it is the reason most are there to begin with, makes it the obviously wrong choice.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-04-04 00:25:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So make them worse in every possible way than player corps?
Bingo.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-04-04 00:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So make them worse in every possible way than player corps?
Bingo.

As it stands they only have 1 advantage over a player corp and a multitude of disadvantages. If that remaining advantage was taken away, sure, you get people out, but until CCP locks people into corps during wardecs and prevents having alts in multiple corps, you may find wardecs, the only advantage NPC corps have, to be just as useless at effecting your desired results as they are now.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-04-04 00:33:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So make them worse in every possible way than player corps?
Bingo.

As it stands they only have 1 advantage over a player corp and a multitude of disadvantages. If that remaining advantage was taken away, sure, you get people out, but until CCP locks people into corps during wardecs and prevents having alts in multiple corps, you may find wardecs, the only advantage NPC corps have, to be just as useless at effecting your desired results as they are now.

I'm gonna repost my solution from another thread

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Yeah, just have 'rookie corps' for trial accounts, and after that you're a 'freelancer' who can be wardec'd just like anyone else. We can even leave a 'Freelancer' chat channel for Nova Fox.
Joining a corp should take an exponentially longer amount of time when done in rapid succession, having a 'cooldown' timer - fixing the corp/alliance hopping exploit. A group of determined hoppers will eventually find themselves dec'd and alone with no one to help them.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-04-04 00:38:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As it stands they only have 1 advantage over a player corp and a multitude of disadvantages. If that remaining advantage was taken away, sure, you get people out, but until CCP locks people into corps during wardecs and prevents having alts in multiple corps, you may find wardecs, the only advantage NPC corps have, to be just as useless at effecting your desired results as they are now.
Why do NPC corps have to have an advantage over player corps? They're a fallback option, not a bread and butter gameplay aspect. Also, I'm not suggesting they have their safety removed. I said quite clearly that it simply should come at a cost. I don't know how you missed that part.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-04-04 00:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

I'm gonna repost my solution from another thread

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Yeah, just have 'rookie corps' for trial accounts, and after that you're a 'freelancer' who can be wardec'd just like anyone else. We can even leave a 'Freelancer' chat channel for Nova Fox.
Joining a corp should take an exponentially longer amount of time when done in rapid succession, having a 'cooldown' timer - fixing the corp/alliance hopping exploit. A group of determined hoppers will eventually find themselves dec'd and alone with no one to help them.


How is being a freelancer different from 1 man corps, or is that the point?
And the corp hopping suggestion seems like a good one. Doesn't handle alts in other corps, but then, what will?
I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but really I think avoiding war should only be slightly less trivial than declaring it, which can be quite cheap.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-04-04 00:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As it stands they only have 1 advantage over a player corp and a multitude of disadvantages. If that remaining advantage was taken away, sure, you get people out, but until CCP locks people into corps during wardecs and prevents having alts in multiple corps, you may find wardecs, the only advantage NPC corps have, to be just as useless at effecting your desired results as they are now.
Why do NPC corps have to have an advantage over player corps? They're a fallback option, not a bread and butter gameplay aspect. Also, I'm not suggesting they have their safety removed. I said quite clearly that it simply should come at a cost. I don't know how you missed that part.

I didn't miss anything. As I stated they have only 1 advantage, or, more relevant to the discussion at hand, have a number of disadvantages. At current NPC corp members can't engage in POS ownership, PCO ownership, engage in war to eliminate competition or for any other purpose (that protection can be viewed as a double edged sword), at current can't back one another up for aggression that would otherwise flag a threat to an entire corp, and sink their tax isk with no hope of any return through corp projects and programs.

The better question is how did you miss the cost that NPC corp life constantly imposes?

Edit: Also, since you've already admitted to wanting to make them in every way worse I'm not sure how you can claim you just want being in NPC to simply "come at a cost" in the first place. You already stated you wanted to ruin them for all tangible purposes that people use them.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-04-04 00:51:30 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Yeah, just have 'rookie corps' for trial accounts, and after that you're a 'freelancer' who can be wardec'd just like anyone else. We can even leave a 'Freelancer' chat channel for Nova Fox.
Joining a corp should take an exponentially longer amount of time when done in rapid succession, having a 'cooldown' timer - fixing the corp/alliance hopping exploit. A group of determined hoppers will eventually find themselves dec'd and alone with no one to help them.
I like this idea overall. Can I suggest a tweak though? I'd like to hear your intelligible feedback, if you will.
Instead of forcing people out of noob corps, just give the noob corps a 50% tax rate to encourage them to leave without forcing them. This also won't affect the brand new player experience significantly because they won't be taxed on any units of income less than 100,000 ISK (could also make that early 100k ISK tutorial payout tax exempt).

Also, if they were to combine your idea and mine, you could have the 50% tax rate noob corps completely war-exempt and also cooldown-exempt (players stuck on cooldown could use this as a last resort flee option). I think that's also okay because even though it doesn't force them into war, it gives them a potentially very costly exit strategy. For a player genuinely trying to just take it easy and fool around, and just not be at war, the 50% tax will be no more than a few more red pixels in the wallet. And I think that makes sense because those are the regular joes who just want to take a load off. They're not hurting anyone and what's more, many of us will find ourselves in that situation someday. But people who make high amounts of "risk-free" ISK trying to evade wardecs would have their ISK income cut sharply, which still allows them to do it but now it's not as much income. That goes perfectly with the risk vs. reward spirit of EVE.

To recap:
  • noob corps have 50% tax rate
  • noob corps are war-exempt and transfer-cooldown exempt
  • NPC corps would have varying tax rates and inversely-correlating wardec rates (between them and other NPC corps)
    • - it's easy to take a "vacation" from danger
    - players who take less risk earn less reward

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Tuscanspeed
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #97 - 2012-04-04 00:52:35 UTC
    It's almost a joke in CAS that most members are simply alts of null sec players.

    So, you want to make changes to NPC corps because of pvp'ers that find it too "bothersome" to actually bring their main into highsec?

    I know that's not exactly what the intent is, but that's what it looks like to me.

    It's funny that some think that the 10% tax is punishment. You people are funny.
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #98 - 2012-04-04 00:57:30 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    I didn't miss anything.
    You missed that my idea wasn't removing the one benefit to being in an NPC corp.

    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    The better question is how did you miss the cost that NPC corp life constantly imposes?
    I didn't miss it. I don't think it's a problem.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #99 - 2012-04-04 01:02:49 UTC
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    I didn't miss anything.
    You missed that my idea wasn't removing the one benefit to being in an NPC corp.

    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    The better question is how did you miss the cost that NPC corp life constantly imposes?
    I didn't miss it. I don't think it's a problem.

    Then clearly being able to wardec and being able to be wardec'd shouldn't be that important. And the idea you stated about having NPC corps wardec each other removes the benefit of immunity to wardec, which is the only advantage. All other aspects of being in NPC are restrictions. I can see how if your activities and somewhat limited you can completely work around those limitations, but for some of us they do have an effect on gameplay.
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #100 - 2012-04-04 01:06:01 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    the idea you stated about having NPC corps wardec each other removes the benefit of immunity to wardec
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cY1PJ0C-v3Y/Td0c5Q49ZMI/AAAAAAAAAAM/cOLTegTBVgw/s1600/facepalm-570x456.jpg

    No, it doesn't.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."