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Highsec Agression

Author
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-04-03 05:30:52 UTC
Why are you all falling for the terrible troll. Come on guys, it's a 3/10 at best.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#42 - 2012-04-03 05:47:35 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
I understand this fear, but I've yet to see proposals that specifically prevent you form operating in the activity you want to do. Recent and proposed changes to readdress the balance that in essence has afforded a lack of the recognised EvE qualities such as risk to the ganker. The complancency they have at the moment to operate with little consequence and as such affords very profitable opportunities at the same time is the reason why it is being brought back in line with the EvE philosophy.

The arguments therefore being proposed by those in the activity seen to be only from their point of view and not accomodating others as a result. People can see the scare mongering as a result, yet when you look at it logically, ganking is not being stopped it is just making it more challenging, presumably as people have become more polific and competent with it as a a result. This however is the bone of contention I guess, in that you see your fun as being more important as it is your own.

And by your original argument above where the attempt to throw your toys out the pram because something didnt go in your favour is a classic sign that you are childish in the process about these arguments, whilst neglecting to see that others equally have something invested into EvE.

If you want the previous and ongoing arguments of "adapt or die", "HTFU" and "risk vs reward" etc. to be valid in EvE then you can't make yourself immune from that process can you?

"Adapt or die" only works when the option to adapt remains on the table. If high-sec aggression (the basis of the topic by the way) is removed entirely, then I'm not entirely sure what I'd be adapting to at that point.

What you see as much-needed balance changes, I see as a gradual but intentional decline that the game has been undergoing. I don't know how long you've been playing, but to put things in perspective, it was much easier to suicide-gank five years ago than it is today. Suicide-ganking was also much less common, because much fewer people did stupid stuff like haul stacks of officer gear in an untanked haulers on autopilot.

And therein lies the realization you must make: CCP has been paving over its sandbox not because this "balancing" has been terribly needed, but because newer players more and more choose to deal with in-game problems by appealing to the developers, instead of using the tools already provided for them.

Am I quitting EVE? No, I haven't said that I am, but I did say that I would if this game no longer keeps me entertained. Would I be obligated to continue doing something that no longer results in enjoyment?

I mean, you're kind of putting me in a position without a way out over here. I'm to be ridiculed if I quit, but at the same time I'm barred from defending my stake in the game by arguing in favor of maintaining the sandbox.

So let's say CCP removes high-sec aggression entirely. Now, I can't adapt because the ability to do so has been removed (you can't adapt to not being allowed to shoot someone by shooting them in a different manner). I can't quit because that would make me a hypocrite due to previous use of the "arguments" you quoted above. I also can't argue my case on the forums because doing so (apparently) would mean that I'm not willing to adapt in the first place.

What exactly am I supposed to do?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#43 - 2012-04-03 05:52:08 UTC
"I'm not entirely sure what I'd be adapting to at that point."

It seems like you're inherently incapable of adaptation :).

Worse than the worse helpless carebear really.

Maybe gow to low-null-wh and try some real pvp?
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-04-03 05:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
I understand this fear, but I've yet to see proposals that specifically prevent you form operating in the activity you want to do. Recent and proposed changes to readdress the balance that in essence has afforded a lack of the recognised EvE qualities such as risk to the ganker. The complancency they have at the moment to operate with little consequence and as such affords very profitable opportunities at the same time is the reason why it is being brought back in line with the EvE philosophy.

The arguments therefore being proposed by those in the activity seen to be only from their point of view and not accomodating others as a result. People can see the scare mongering as a result, yet when you look at it logically, ganking is not being stopped it is just making it more challenging, presumably as people have become more polific and competent with it as a a result. This however is the bone of contention I guess, in that you see your fun as being more important as it is your own.

And by your original argument above where the attempt to throw your toys out the pram because something didnt go in your favour is a classic sign that you are childish in the process about these arguments, whilst neglecting to see that others equally have something invested into EvE.

If you want the previous and ongoing arguments of "adapt or die", "HTFU" and "risk vs reward" etc. to be valid in EvE then you can't make yourself immune from that process can you?

"Adapt or die" only works when the option to adapt remains on the table. If high-sec aggression (the basis of the topic by the way) is removed entirely, then I'm not entirely sure what I'd be adapting to at that point.

What you see as much-needed balance changes, I see as a gradual but intentional decline that the game has been undergoing. I don't know how long you've been playing, but to put things in perspective, it was much easier to suicide-gank five years ago than it is today. Suicide-ganking was also much less common, because much fewer people did stupid stuff like haul stacks of officer gear in an untanked haulers on autopilot.

And therein lies the realization you must make: CCP has been paving over its sandbox not because this "balancing" has been terribly needed, but because newer players more and more choose to deal with in-game problems by appealing to the developers, instead of using the tools already provided for them.

Am I quitting EVE? No, I haven't said that I am, but I did say that I would if this game no longer keeps me entertained. Would I be obligated to continue doing something that no longer results in enjoyment?

I mean, you're kind of putting me in a position without a way out over here. I'm to be ridiculed if I quit, but at the same time I'm barred from defending my stake in the game by arguing in favor of maintaining the sandbox.

So let's say CCP removes high-sec aggression entirely. Now, I can't adapt because the ability to do so has been removed (you can't adapt to not being allowed to shoot someone by shooting them in a different manner). I can't quit because that would make me a hypocrite due to previous use of the "arguments" you quoted above. I also can't argue my case on the forums because doing so (apparently) would mean that I'm not willing to adapt in the first place.

What exactly am I supposed to do?


You can logically and rationally debate things without ultimatums if your capable of seeing things in anything other than black and white terms as I have been trying to explain.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#45 - 2012-04-03 05:58:12 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Never fear, in EVE we are the majority.

We're not the numerical majority, but we do hold the majority of player competence. However, that competence becomes irrelevant if it's rendered inapplicable due to game play changes. Like I said before, if CCP removes the ability to kill someone in high-sec when they don't want to be killed, there isn't anything that can be done to adapt to the situation. Such a change would kill the game though, which is why I'm fairly confident that I'll be able to maintain my steady rate of carebear unsubs come Inferno.

I think CCP realizes that allowing the weak to be culled is probably a better business strategy than having everyone quit out of boredom.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ch3244
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-04-03 05:59:53 UTC
Well looks like ill have to kill more carebears to make up for this.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-04-03 06:04:50 UTC
For PvP and like to encourage more of it?

Want to validate a potential Career path in EvE with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?

Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?

You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in EvE where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?

Or simply want to make EvE less boring?

Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#48 - 2012-04-03 06:06:01 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You can logically and rationally debate things without ultimatums if your capable of seeing things in anything other than black and white terms as I have been trying to explain.

Your posts haven't had to do with explanation as much as they had to do with personal attacks and troll-baiting. I mean, I went back and reread your posts, and I still can't find a single instance of you presenting an argument. Pretty much everything you said was about how I'm such a baddie.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dhorion Pyler
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-04-03 06:11:07 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
For PvP and like to encourage more of it?

Want to validate a potential Career path in EvE with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?

Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?

You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in EvE where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?

Or simply want to make EvE less boring?

Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.


EvE = Environment vs Environment

or

Did you mean EVE?
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-04-03 06:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You can logically and rationally debate things without ultimatums if your capable of seeing things in anything other than black and white terms as I have been trying to explain.

Your posts haven't had to do with explanation as much as they had to do with personal attacks and troll-baiting. I mean, I went back and reread your posts, and I still can't find a single instance of you presenting an argument. Pretty much everything you said was about how I'm such a baddie.


Personally for me due to experience all I need to do is read the words Destiny Corrupted next to the portrait, that is usually all the evidence I need. Blink trollol

Anyone terribly interested, read Destiny's posts in "Crimewatch mechanics" or "Bombs and Bubbles in high sec" and determine for yourself.

Otherwise, I don't want to have to go all e-lawyer on your fail posts in the forums to make a point, or resurface numerous previous discussions covering the same topics over and over again, if anything for personal sanity since it is you I'm debating it with who consistantly shows little or no adaptation to discussion, I've literally better things to do than bash my head against a brick wall.

This persistance when you aren't offering any new arguments to the table as have been previously discussed is just a sign that despite discussion you have made a choice, fair enough your stance, why would I want to spend ages in detail debating with someone I know is unmutable? In this sense the only baddie behaviour is believing that repetition is a way to force your argument accross.

Sorry but I've made the point I want to make even if in generalised terms. Metrics and design considerations are being discussed with CCP and seems they agree with me in terms of future changes to mechanics that effect suicide ganking. Sure the game will continue to "evolve".
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-04-03 06:34:42 UTC
Dhorion Pyler wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
For PvP and like to encourage more of it?

Want to validate a potential Career path in EvE with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?

Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?

You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in EvE where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?

Or simply want to make EvE less boring?

Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.


EvE = Environment vs Environment

or

Did you mean EVE?


It means Eggs Vs Eyebrows of course
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#52 - 2012-04-03 06:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Ah yes, the good old "I have many very very valid points but I won't explain them because you're a troll" response, coming from a person who admitted to trolling in this thread no less.

Edit: Also loving the continued and unrelenting barrage of personal attacks against a person whose posts are apparently too "fail" to even be addressed in the first place.

Keep it going, chum. Maybe someone will actually buy into your "pro-pvp" arguments, at which point I imagine you will coil around them, unhinge your jaw, and swallow them whole like a serpent.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Zircon Dasher
#53 - 2012-04-03 06:38:21 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

It means Eggs Vs Eyebrows of course


Looks at your face

Looks at your post

Looks at your face




Guess we know which one wonLol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#54 - 2012-04-03 06:39:37 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

It means Eggs Vs Eyebrows of course


no no, Ego Vs Ebriosity
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-04-03 06:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

It means Eggs Vs Eyebrows of course


Looks at your face

Looks at your post

Looks at your face




Guess we know which one wonLol


So glad that didnt escape anyone. Roll
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-04-03 06:43:57 UTC
Proof of an ability to adapt to Goon suggestion: Blink





For PvP and like to encourage more of it?

Want to validate a potential Career path in ≡v≡ with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?

Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?

You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in ≡v≡ where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?

Or simply want to make ≡v≡ less boring?

Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-04-03 06:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Keep it going, chum. Maybe someone will actually buy into your "pro-pvp" arguments, at which point I imagine you will coil around them, unhinge your jaw, and swallow them whole like a serpent.


Guess someone already has bought into the argument:

Grumpy Owly wrote:
In responce to an enquiry about BH at Fanfest:

CCP Design panel wrote:

"It's going to be awesome."

"It's absolutley on the list of things to do."

"We have a spaceships game, but you can't be han solo or boba fett, that's not clever."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_pLi1J9YrkM#t=1199s


But I don't see bounty hunting as purley something of interest to myself, so they are not buying into "my" idea at all, collectively the CSM seems to support it also along with numerous support from posts and opinion in F&I and elsewhere. I'm merely promoting awareness.

But if you fail to see BH as something that doesn't promote PvP as an activity then there really is a "tutorial" you missed somewhere along the way perhaps?
Dhorion Pyler
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-04-03 06:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dhorion Pyler
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Proof of an ability to adapt to Goon suggestion: Blink





For PvP and like to encourage more of it?

Want to validate a potential Career path in ≡v≡ with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?

Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?

You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in ≡v≡ where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?

Or simply want to make ≡v≡ less boring?

Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.


≡v≡ is acceptable clarification, thanks you for your cooperation.

Edit: Obviously I meant 'thank you'
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#59 - 2012-04-03 08:17:24 UTC
I don't exactly understand how we went from discussing the removal of aggression in high-sec to bounty hunting and CSM, but whatever.

What I have an issue with is you continually putting words in my mouth by claiming I disagree with ideas and changes, such as the upcoming aggression changes in Inferno, and claiming my opposition to transferable kill rights and player bounty payments tied to destruction values, two things I proposed in early 2006 and have been supporting ever since.

It's fairly obvious that pretension is your game, and as such no real, civilized debate can be had with you. You're simply an aggrieved victim who deludes himself into thinking that new game mechanics that expose gankers to more sources of hostility will somehow make them concentrate on shooting each other and forget all about killing haulers and miners.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dyner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-04-03 08:17:29 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Yeah, it's gonna suck when you actually lose your ship when you suicide gank.
Next they'll make it so 1v1 duels don't allow people to have 5 neutral RRs on their side too!



Why would you waste time with 5 RRs, use 6 cheap DPS and eat the cost for the reward of lulz.