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[Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#161 - 2012-04-03 14:37:31 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Yep, sounds reasonable.

It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.

Empty quoting, For Great Honor!

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#162 - 2012-04-03 17:34:12 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Yep, sounds reasonable.

It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.



What do you mean forums ingame "etc"?

Are we able to post it on failheap challenge? What about other mediums that have nothing to do with eve? When massively reports the names of the csm members (because the csm showed up at a public event like fanfest) will all employees of massively have their eve accounts banned?

If people make their identity public by showing up in person with others it is sort of hard to unring the bell.

Is ccp supposed to police the internet for any mention of somones name and then try to track down who released it and then see if they have an eve account?

And why are they doing this again? Because someone somewhere said something stupid to the guy who was telling people, who said they were considering ending their lives, to go ahead and kill themselves?


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#163 - 2012-04-03 19:53:57 UTC
I did not expect this particular proposal to bring the tinfoil out of the cupboards like this when I originally saw it.

Wow guys, just wow. Thats some petty stuff right there.

another +1 because it deserves it.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-04-03 20:37:53 UTC
Signed.

The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life.
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#165 - 2012-04-03 21:14:29 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Especially with the way some sectors of EVE players s***talk (they just don't know when enough is enough though), even this extreme talk is probably not serious, just NOT thinking and more than likely it is (again) alcohol influenced.

Better to deal with law enforcement (with NO delay) if necessary like last night on a case by case basis ahould this arise again in the future.

Upd: EVE needs to have the 'bad boy on the block" reputation, but now it seems more like the 'psychotic idiot on the block'. Alliance and Corp members need to 'eyeball' thier members better. These behaviors are usually evident in some fashion BEFORE these things happen. But then the type they hang around with probably think it's funny.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Update 3: Re-read the article about all of this. I'd be careful (I can't stress that enough) and REALLY BE SURE that was not somebody's idea of a bad joke on that radio show. Something seems staged about it. THAT needs to be looked into as well.

Besides, a CSM composed of anonymous Toons will not be taken very seriously at all, and may as well not exist.

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL



You act like the CSM is taken seriously by most of the playerbase anyways... It's not. There's no reason to publish names of the real people.
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-04-03 22:00:00 UTC
Zirise wrote:
Signed.

The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life.


If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain?

Obvious projection is obvious.
Lanasak
Doomheim
#167 - 2012-04-03 22:29:41 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:
Zirise wrote:
Signed.

The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life.


If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain?

Obvious projection is obvious.


Considering that you personally said "WELL IF CSM MEMBERS SCREW UP THEY GET TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES (harassment lol HTFU o7o7o7) IRL" I think we can safely assume that this proposal is completely reasonable, lobby our CSM delegates about it and hopefully see it in place for CSM 8.

Thanks for your support!
Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2012-04-03 22:41:55 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:
Zirise wrote:
Signed.

The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life.


If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain?

Obvious projection is obvious.



In what way do RL names add any sort of accountability that doesn't involve some level of RL harassment?

The only way they add to 'accountability' is by the hanging threat of defamation or RL threats. That's just not tolerable.
Jonas Xiamon
#169 - 2012-04-04 00:17:06 UTC
This information may be easy to get a hold of, but it shouldn't be any easier because of CCP. Supported.

I usally write one of these and then change it a month later when I reread it and decide it sounds stupid.
Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#170 - 2012-04-04 02:08:15 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?
If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse.
Supported
Joyelle
SludgeSlingers
#171 - 2012-04-04 04:15:38 UTC
I see goonthugs everywhereBig smile but with that aside, I support this proposal.
Prince Kobol
#172 - 2012-04-04 08:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Liang Nuren wrote:


However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.


I am going to presume that you are talking about Ankhesentapemkah here, if not then I apologise in advance.

Ankhesentapemkah - Eva Jobse was banned for a breach of the non-disclosure agreement (NDA). CCP confirmed this a number of times.

If you do a google search of Ankhesentapemkah you will find a lot about her personal life very quickly.

This was information that she put out there of her own accord. She was not shy about being a member of the CSM and if anything publicly promoted this fact as much as she could.

After her ban she stated that she did not agree with decision and would reveal why on her blog, she never did.

Considering Eva's background she should of known better then most that when you break a NDA it is only ever going to end in a butt hurt load of pain.

The only thing I will give her is she never complained that the decision taken by CCP could have real life consequences.

In truth she couldn't as it was her decision promote herself at every opportunity that she held this role, from her own personal website to her personal blog.

The same should be said of kittens.

Whilst I do not agree with everything that has happened and been said, it has been Alex's decision to promote the link between his real life and the character The Mittani. He has never been shy about the fact, from various articles he has written for various sites, comments made on various forums etc.

He has actively promoted himself to the same if not greater degree as Eva did.

By doing this he has to accept that there is going to be consequences, mainly being that you leave yourself open to idiots making personal attack against you external to Eve, outside of CCP's control.

You can not openly court the media and then complain if people attack you.

Everybody who runs for the CSM is aware that your real name will be made public, if you accept this then you also have to accept that any actions you take as part of the CSM can be, and most likely be linked to your real name.

The issue is magnified some what due to the Character of The Mittani and the Goons. Any fool would realise that being in this position greatly increases the chance that at some point some idiot will make personal attacks against you.

Throw on top the sheer amount of self publicity he gives himself I am only surprised this did not happen sooner.

Again I do not agree with everything that has happened and been said, but Alex is an intelligent adult who was well aware of the possible consequences of the decisions he has made.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#173 - 2012-04-04 18:25:24 UTC
Della Monk wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?
If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse.
Supported



Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda?

Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#174 - 2012-04-04 18:29:48 UTC
Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2012-04-04 19:04:06 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Della Monk wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?
If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse.
Supported



Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda?

Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities?


I have seen many pictures come out from fanfest of popular players in their natural form. I still have no idea who they are, where they are from etc.

You're grasping at straws.
Prince Kobol
#176 - 2012-04-04 20:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Zirise wrote:


In what way do RL names add any sort of accountability that doesn't involve some level of RL harassment?

The only way they add to 'accountability' is by the hanging threat of defamation or RL threats. That's just not tolerable.


They shouldn't is the answer.

However, in regards to both Kittens and Ankhesentapemkah, I knew there real names long before they become members of the CSM due to their own self promotion.

Neither have what you would call being shy telling the world about themselves.

Does that give people the right to say the kind of things that were directed at Kittens, of course it doesn't, but if they are willing to tell the world about themselves, then you have to expect at some point some idiot is going to say things that are reprehensible.

The risk is greatly magnified when you promote yourself like kittens has done over the years.

Once again, I want to stress that I do not agree with any of personal attacks that have been aimed at Alex, but you have to accept there are consequences and risks with this kind of self promotion.

Alex is supposed to be a successfully lawyer in real life, therefore a very well educated person. Am I to believe that he was not aware that his actions, his self promotion, would risk something like this happening?

Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?

Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?

I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.

As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#177 - 2012-04-04 20:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Prince Kobol wrote:

Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?

Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?

I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.

As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.


If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Prince Kobol
#178 - 2012-04-04 21:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Liang Nuren wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?

Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?

I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.

As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.


If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.

-Liang


I was totally unaware what happened to Jade and again, I find it a totally reprehensible act, yet I also find it funny how many members of Goonswarm were on the forums saying what was said about Alex to be terrible, yet them themselves are just as bad.. double standards here I think....

As for Darius, again the goons have a major hand in this, even thou CCP have stated clearly a number of times that Darius has not broke the NDA, they continue to accuse him.

As for Larkonis Trassler, before this post I had never heard of him. Did a quick google search and found he was kicked off the CSM for using insider information to make isk. None of the articles I found including CCP's official statement mentioned anything regarding NDA.

I am not saying the goons are at fault, but its seems with the examples you have given that 2 out of 3 go back to the goons.

Perhaps because of the past actions of members of the goons, this is why he was attacked in the manner he was.

Again I am not condoning it, two wrongs do not make a right , however you can not be surprised when people treat you then same way you treat them.

If CCP do decided to no longer release the real life names of the CSM members, fine by me.

Lets be honest here, it makes no difference whether we know their rl names or not, personally I would not.

What I would like to add is, I do not know if Alex was a member of the Goons or was personally involved, or was in charge at the time those personal attacks were made on Jade, but if he was, then I would sincerely hope he now has a better understanding of what it is like being personally attacked and maybe, just maybe, he makes sure that whilst he is leading the goons, he does his best to make sure it doesn't happen again to anybody else.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#179 - 2012-04-04 21:14:50 UTC
Zirise wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Della Monk wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?
If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse.
Supported



Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda?

Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities?


I have seen many pictures come out from fanfest of popular players in their natural form. I still have no idea who they are, where they are from etc.




But their identities will be shared and can be published - and ccp can do nothing about it. The idea of trying to keep the identities of people who are going to show up in person at live events secret is pretty odd.

I mean if they cancel the fanfest csm meeting this might make some sense. But even there are ccp devs supposed to always call the men who play "seleen" and "Elise" "Seleen" and "Elise" (or "Miss Randolf") when they are in a meeting, or at a pub? Are they going to make up names?

Whether *you* know who they are is irrelevant. If the concern is some crazy wants to find mittani or his wife they easilly can. The purpose of the idea is not to prevent people who really don't care about who is on the csm from finding out their names. The idea is to prevent someone who is nutty enough to care allot from getting this information. That wont work.



Ok so it probably won't work but are there are there any disadvantages?

Not really. Just a few very minor ones as far as I can tell:

1)CSM is not an in game council. They are real people who are discussing possible changes to a game. Electing an ingame character to represent you in the real world sort of blurs this distinction. Mittani suggested he couldn't keep it straight who he was at the alliance meeting. I don't believe him but he did claim(and I suppose some believed) he couldn't keep it straight what "hat" he was wearing. This would only worsen that blurring problem.

2) Similar to the first problem we often hear csm members claim they are qualified for the csm due to their real life jobs. How can these claims be verified? Is it all just in game bullshit? Mittani claimed his experience as a lawyer would help him and some people believed him. How are voters supposed to verify this. Is it going to become like spying in eve were people can lie all they want and its just part of the game?

3)Are we admitting that this game has so many truly evil people that unlike every other game/hobby/sport our csm members need to be treated as though they are in a witness protection program?


4) Its still unclear what the rules would require. If someone calls someone by their real name at fanfest and someone else overhears it, should they be reprimanded - assuming they have an account? Seems like a bunch of silly drama over nothing to me.

But really I don't even really understand the rules now. For example I don't know what EULA Mittani violated. He gave the ingame name of someone - was that the violation? Or was it because he encouraged people to go after him in game - isn't that what merc corps do? I really don't know what specific term of the EULA he violated. But whatever. I don't really care.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#180 - 2012-04-04 21:21:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?

Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?

I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.

As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.


If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.

-Liang



I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815