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[Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-04-01 19:57:33 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
More or less,

Note that its goon supporters and pets/alts that are pushing this.


It also opens the door for fraud against the voting players.


no it does not

we get it you want to harass CSM members IRL when they support things you don't like but that doesn't quite help your case

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Bergon Darek
#122 - 2012-04-01 20:36:56 UTC
Richard Bong wrote:
And how does you having his name make that person come out?
In theory, someone running for CSM in his proper person, and not as an anonymous toon, is less likely to simply lie his way into office, and is less likely to abuse whatever small amount of power the office affords him once he's there, because he or she will feel more accountable.

One (obvious) counter-argument is that anyone can turn into a publicly drunken douchebag after being elected. (Note: this is not intended to be a dig at Alex; most people have the capability to be douchebags if sufficiently disinhibited, including me.)

And yes, politicians lie all the time.

Bottom line, though, is that I want someone who's campaigning for a position where he will be representing me to feel a level of personal accountability for post-election actions, and I don't feel like making candidates (or CSM representatives) anonymous is a good answer to situations like the recent threats to Alex et al. A better answer to those threats is temporary bans handed out by CCP, I think.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#123 - 2012-04-01 21:43:39 UTC
/signing

Providing "real" names to the public won't make people more or less accountable... but it will open the doors for less than sane people to take... less than "savory" action.

A good example of this was the system that Blizzard set up... the one where the forums would use people's real life names instead of the their character's names so that people could be held "accountable" for what they said and/or trolled.
Guess what... people still trolled and the system was abandoned after mountains of concerns were brought to Blizzard's attention.


Honestly... real names won't grant anyone the ability to really "know" the person they are voting for or allow them to hold said people more "accountable." They will still be just that... names. Until you step outside of the game and try to do something with that name (which isn't really kosher by any standard or rule).
And at the end of the day, this is a GAME. Nothing more, nothing less. An election system pertaining to a game should be taken no more seriously than a game of rock-paper-scissors that you play with your friends to decide where your next road trip is going to be.

How did you Veterans start?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#124 - 2012-04-01 22:44:06 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:

Bottom line, though, is that I want someone who's campaigning for a position where he will be representing me to feel a level of personal accountability for post-election actions, and I don't feel like making candidates (or CSM representatives) anonymous is a good answer to situations like the recent threats to Alex et al. A better answer to those threats is temporary bans handed out by CCP, I think.


They have a level of personal accountability that comes from NDAs and contracts with CCP. The player base does not need their real name, country of origin, address, resume, or any other real life information to guarantee this.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-04-01 23:39:41 UTC
I never did understand why real names needed to be provided to the player base.
Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#126 - 2012-04-02 00:04:04 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:
Bottom line, though, is that I want someone who's campaigning for a position where he will be representing me to feel a level of personal accountability for post-election actions, and I don't feel like making candidates (or CSM representatives) anonymous is a good answer to situations like the recent threats to Alex et al. A better answer to those threats is temporary bans handed out by CCP, I think.


I thought personal consequences for spaceship game actions was what got us in this whole mess in the first place?
Bergon Darek
#127 - 2012-04-02 00:16:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


They have a level of personal accountability that comes from NDAs and contracts with CCP. The player base does not need their real name, country of origin, address, resume, or any other real life information to guarantee this.
I think you miss my intent. Accountability to CCP is all well and good, but that's almost entirely directed at not disclosing CCP proprietary information without CCP permission. I've been a member of a similar body for the past several years; There's a code of conduct we are required to abide by (which pretty much boils down to "don't be a douchebag") and there is an NDA which we must honor. I assume the CSM is no different once you're elected.

If players are to vote for CSM candidates, though, I feel those candidates also have a level of accountability to the players that vote for them. Without that accountability, the CSM might as well be a star chamber. I don't feel like I need all the little details of the player's life, but I do feel that CSM members (or candidates) owe me a bit more than some random player.

As for protecting CSM candidates (and members, past and present), I honestly think that this is something CCP should step up a bit on. If someone makes RL threats against a CSM, then CCP should take some action. I'm aware that CCP's current policy is that out of game communications are no business of CCP's (and I know of some sickening RL threats that have been made over the years where CCP said "contact your local law enforcement if you think they're serious"), but I feel that they do have a responsibility to people who are in the "public eye" as CSM members beyond the general policy.

While I won't argue against the your contention that CSM candidates/members need more "protection" than they get today, I don't feel that anonymity is the right way to get it.
Bergon Darek
#128 - 2012-04-02 00:18:39 UTC
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
I thought personal consequences for spaceship game actions was what got us in this whole mess in the first place?
Umm, no. Alex plays The Mittani, but he isn't the toon (I hope). What he did IRL is what got us into the current little mess.
Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#129 - 2012-04-02 00:31:05 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:
]Umm, no. Alex plays The Mittani, but he isn't the toon (I hope). What he did IRL is what got us into the current little mess.


That's the whole point, though. What Mittens did was considered to be bad because it could have caused RL consequences for The Wis, and all because of something that The Wis did within a spaceship game. All this outrage and not a shred of actual RL info was given - imagine if you will that the target of said comment would have been either a current or former CSM member, where their RL info was actually available on Evelopedia?

Guess what? You don't even need to imagine it, as Mittens is catching a lot of RL harassment over this. I'm not saying to garner sympathy or anything, just to suggest that the playerbase of this game is not only capable of taking things far beyond the boundaries of the game, but they're quite willing to do it. It's time to accept that and remove the CSM's public information to at least attempt to prevent this from happening again. Whatever marginal benefits someone might gain from having a candidate's RL info are massively overweighed by the downsides, especially in light of this debacle.
Bergon Darek
#130 - 2012-04-02 00:42:24 UTC
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
... as Mittens is catching a lot of RL harassment over this. ...
Yeah. I know. Sucks, TBH, and I feel for him (even though I've never met him). I think he should forward some of the more egregiously offensive stuff to CCP and hold their toes to the fire to help do something about it. A few 30 day bans would be a good place to start.

But I think complete anonymity will breed a star chamber atmosphere and ultimately destroy what good the CSM is capable of doing.
Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#131 - 2012-04-02 00:58:54 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
... as Mittens is catching a lot of RL harassment over this. ...
Yeah. I know. Sucks, TBH, and I feel for him (even though I've never met him). I think he should forward some of the more egregiously offensive stuff to CCP and hold their toes to the fire to help do something about it. A few 30 day bans would be a good place to start.


I think that the first place you go with him catching RL harassment over this is "he should tell CCP" shows that you really just don't even "get" what RL harassment means in this case. I'll give you a hint: The people doing it aren't exactly attaching their character names to it, and it's not happening within the game itself.

Bergon Darek wrote:
But I think complete anonymity will breed a star chamber atmosphere and ultimately destroy what good the CSM is capable of doing.


Remind the audience again how having their RL names public contributes ANYTHING?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#132 - 2012-04-02 01:02:23 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:

If players are to vote for CSM candidates, though, I feel those candidates also have a level of accountability to the players that vote for them. Without that accountability, the CSM might as well be a star chamber. I don't feel like I need all the little details of the player's life, but I do feel that CSM members (or candidates) owe me a bit more than some random player.


They do owe you more than a random player, but you don't need their in game name to get it. That you will get what you are guaranteed isn't for you to guarantee yourself, but for CCP to guarantee for you. Furthermore, none of us really know much more about the CSM members than they've chosen to share with us directly - and even that is mostly us taking their word for it. Ultimately, we've stepped way over the line the moment any of us tries to act on the real life information we are currently being given.

Effectively: the only possible uses you can have for this information are to give you some sense of empowerment over the CSM members or to literally escalate in game retribution to real life.

Quote:

As for protecting CSM candidates (and members, past and present), I honestly think that this is something CCP should step up a bit on. If someone makes RL threats against a CSM, then CCP should take some action. I'm aware that CCP's current policy is that out of game communications are no business of CCP's (and I know of some sickening RL threats that have been made over the years where CCP said "contact your local law enforcement if you think they're serious"), but I feel that they do have a responsibility to people who are in the "public eye" as CSM members beyond the general policy.

While I won't argue against the your contention that CSM candidates/members need more "protection" than they get today, I don't feel that anonymity is the right way to get it.


CCP takes threats of RL escalation very seriously and I have it on good authority that they don't hesitate to contact local law enforcement. However that's going to be cold comfort when someone ends up assaulted in the real world. What you're asking for is effectively impossible and what I'm suggesting is the only PRACTICAL response that we can have.

We have no need of this information and we have proven that we do not have the responsibility or sanity to be trusted with it. Your feelings that they owe you be damned.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2012-04-02 02:07:10 UTC
I support this Cool
Stirko Hek
New Home Industries
#134 - 2012-04-02 02:11:45 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
... as Mittens is catching a lot of RL harassment over this. ...
Yeah. I know. Sucks, TBH, and I feel for him (even though I've never met him). I think he should forward some of the more egregiously offensive stuff to CCP and hold their toes to the fire to help do something about it. A few 30 day bans would be a good place to start.

But I think complete anonymity will breed a star chamber atmosphere and ultimately destroy what good the CSM is capable of doing.


Let us create a hypothetical situation, one where you have won a seat on the CSM and have had your name and some details about you, such as your country and such made public.

Let us then suppose you do something. Something controversial. Something that stirs up the emotions of several players with a large emotional investment in this game (and many do have far too much of an emotional investment in what is just a game). These players are furious, they are angry. Some are so angry they're willing to do something about it. They manage to find your information, your address, your place of work. They even manage to track down your schedule, when you're at home, when you're out and the like. They wait until you've gone out, and are well away. Then they enter your home, find your loved one (let us suppose you have one, if you do not already) and then they harm them in someway. They might just assault them, or if they are unhinged enough, angry enough, they might even go further. You then come home, to find your loved one sprawled out in a pool of their own blood.

Not a pretty scenario, in any way. Yes, it's a worst case scenario. But recent events have shown that some players are willing to at least do some of the above, who knows how much more might be done in the future if the wrong thing is said/done by a CSM member?

Let's not let it come to that. Let us keep our CSM members safe.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-04-02 11:30:04 UTC
Never did and don't understand why anyone other than CCP needs to know personal details to be a spaceship game politician.

/signed

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#136 - 2012-04-02 16:08:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tonight I listened to Eve Radio where the CSM spoke about The Mittani Scandal and then The Mittani and Nyphur talked about the consequences and fallout of associating real life name with overly sensationalist terms. The conversation was much less dramatic than I expected and I'm very thankful that Nyphur was so willing to work with The Mittani. Eventually they even made up and almost e-hugged. How cute.

However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.

At any rate, at the end of the show, someone posted The Mittani's real life address and someone else said they were headed that way to **** The Mittani's wife. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this said, but I've learned a lot about the way CCP handles it since the last time I saw it so directly. And just to be clear: CCP takes these threats very seriously and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's received a visit from their local law enforcement tonight.

So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP. The real life information of current CSM members is already available, but that's no reason for future members to potentially be put in similar real life situations.

We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet. Maybe even people like you.

-Liang




As a player who has suffered my fair share of real life harrassment from Goonswarm (and friends) ever since my real name was provided to the community as part of my successful CSM 1 run, I could certainly see the argument for going back in time and reversing this policy.

In retrospect sure, the fact my real name was provided to enemies in Eve allowed some people to search for my online CV, take my pictures, find my employers past and current and begin an organized campaign of harrassment against my real identity. Sites were created specifically to portray me in the worst possible light and links were provided to my place of work along with letters perporting to be from "concerned parents" that a person like me should be playing an online game.

Even today real life photograph is hosted on the goonwiki alongside the accusation I'm putting GHB into children's drinks.

So yes, real life harrassment does certainly arise from the fact that CSM candidates are required to give their real names because some subscribers to this game are completely incapable of keeping their animosity to in-game only behaviour.

At this point I will support your topic to remove people's real life names from the process on the provisio it goes further and makes any unauthorized link to somebody's personal detals, photographs a eula breaching offence punishable by a signifcant ban.

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community

And incidently I would like to call upon the administrators of the goonwiki to remove all reference to my rl photograph and allegations of criminal activity otherwise I will again petition the GM's at CCP to take action in this case.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#137 - 2012-04-02 16:20:22 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

At this point I will support your topic to remove people's real life names from the process on the provisio it goes further and makes any unauthorized link to somebody's personal detals, photographs a eula breaching offence punishable by a signifcant ban.

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community


I could not agree more - thanks Jade. I'll hit you up about the rest of your request - I at least have a couple of ideas on how to approach that given the fact that Goons have no control over that site.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#138 - 2012-04-02 16:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkon Olacar
Jade Constantine wrote:

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community


Serious question: Would you include the Eve-O forums as ingame or out of game? As much of the meta gaming happens here. And not just here, but on unofficial forums, where everyone API registers as their main toon - is that ingame, as people are still only displayed as their toon, or out of game, as it is out of the control of the gms?

I do agree that out of game harrassment should be cracked down on when proven, but where do you draw the line between ingame and out of game. Its a grey area, and I personally do not know the answers.

EDIT: Also, the comment on your real life photo page is clearly tongue in cheek, and not a serious accusation - but your real life photo has no business being on that website without your permission, so should be removed (along with the comment).
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#139 - 2012-04-02 17:07:52 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:

Serious question: Would you include the Eve-O forums as ingame or out of game? As much of the meta gaming happens here. And not just here, but on unofficial forums, where everyone API registers as their main toon - is that ingame, as people are still only displayed as their toon, or out of game, as it is out of the control of the gms?


Well I think anything that refers to a character and ingame activities is ingame.

Anything that refers to a player and out of game activities is out of game.

With ingame stuff we can have the cold hard eve online with propaganda, psychological warfare and all that cold brutal stuff.

With out of game stuff we have to have respect for eve other as real life players.

This would be a significant departure from the way things are done on the Something Awful forums where the ruie is "anything on the internet is fair game". But since we're here (in eve online) to play a spaceship game I don't see a problem with keeping the interactions to (dark and edgy) IC and (respectful and above board) OOC.

Arkon Olacar wrote:
I do agree that out of game harrassment should be cracked down on when proven, but where do you draw the line between ingame and out of game. Its a grey area, and I personally do not know the answers.


Well I don't think it will hurt to draw the line on the benefit of doubt for respectful decent interactions on an ooc level. Nobody should be trying to bully anybody else OOC while playing an online game.

Arkon Olacar wrote:
EDIT: Also, the comment on your real life photo page is clearly tongue in cheek, and not a serious accusation - but your real life photo has no business being on that website without your permission, so should be removed (along with the comment).


Yeah and since the picture ended up there because I had to release my RL name as part of the CSM process its quite relevant to the op.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#140 - 2012-04-02 17:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community


Serious question: Would you include the Eve-O forums as ingame or out of game? As much of the meta gaming happens here. And not just here, but on unofficial forums, where everyone API registers as their main toon - is that ingame, as people are still only displayed as their toon, or out of game, as it is out of the control of the gms?

I do agree that out of game harrassment should be cracked down on when proven, but where do you draw the line between ingame and out of game. Its a grey area, and I personally do not know the answers.


I can't speak for Jade, but I can say that we covered this topic while I was trying to get his support for my proposal. At one point we seemed to agree that "personal attacks" deriving from RL information are currently a (probably barely) "legal" part of the in game experience, even if they're in poor taste and degrade the overall experience of the game. He'd like to see that kind of attack banned while I think its just in extremely poor taste and should be avoided as a potentially risky move. He also has some peculiar uses of the term "IC" and "OOC" that really confuse the issue for most of who don't role play at all. :)

But really, you're right - a lot of Eve's meta game does happen here on the forums, and CCP provided some formal precedence for how far the meta game can go on the forums when equating Fanfest to Eve-O and banning The Mittani. For instance, the slide making fun of the suicidal person was in bounds but asking people to harass him out of game in hopes of a RL result was out of bounds.

People posting RL information on 3rd party sites is far more questionable and IMO should be strongly avoided given how effective The Mittani was at leaning on 3rd party news sites. I would be in favor of in game bans for people found doing such things.

-Liang

Ed: Expounding. Of course.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.