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Eve Radio Midnight Tonight: This week in review, with Trebor, Seleene, Two Step and... The Mittani

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Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2012-04-01 03:27:55 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

What "label" would you use exactly? Truthfully?

Also, can you understand why the "media" or laymen might use that term vs, incitement to suicide?



Would it really even be considered harassment considering this occurred within a completely option leisure activity that has pre-existing anonymity through derived character names and mechanisms to avoid unwanted interactions? It didn't impact either his livelihood nor his personal identity space.

The media and laymen both have preconceived notions when it comes to videogames and the media is in the business of selling ad revenue through sensationalism not actual information distribution and public education.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#222 - 2012-04-01 03:30:31 UTC
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

What "label" would you use exactly? Truthfully?

Also, can you understand why the "media" or laymen might use that term vs, incitement to suicide?



Would it really even be considered harassment considering this occurred within a completely option leisure activity that has pre-existing anonymity through derived character names and mechanisms to avoid unwanted interactions? It didn't impact either his livelihood nor his personal identity space.

The media and laymen both have preconceived notions when it comes to videogames and the media is in the business of selling ad revenue through sensationalism not actual information distribution and public education.


Harassing someone on a video game or social site does count as harassment in most US districts.

Also the fact it was incitement to suicide does not vanish just cause you want too.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#223 - 2012-04-01 03:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
RougeOperator wrote:
What the other character said or did is not even and issue.

What if the next person that make the claim Isnt lying?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Whether the person was serious or not, claiming suicide when in-game (IN-GAME!) assets are destroyed is pretty ****** up. It's a sick attempt to get what you want. You'd assume CCP would have some sort of EVE mail scraping utility to look for **** like that.

Now, I don't blame The Wis for what happened to The Mittani; The Mittani did that to himself. But given the situation I would hardly call The Mittani a cyber-bully.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2012-04-01 03:35:42 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Except he didn't. He got banned for crossing the line, be it drunk or not.

Exactly, because he was being an *******. He deserved what he got. However, given that he was referring to someone playing a video game who used RL suicide as a threat (something I find equally deplorable to inciting suicide), I hardly think "cyber-bully" is appropriate.

Semantics. You're getting caught on the wiki definition of "cyber-bully", which is fine by me. Obviously it bothers Alexander to be associated with cyber-bullying but he's only attempting to grasp to any strings he possibly can. But he is a bully and he does it by meta-gaming and using the game as his tool.

He spits in the air all of the time. This time he swollowed and obviously didn't like the taste. This interview was nothing but him bitching about meta-gaming and about it not being fair to him. Ironic, isn't it?

And again he excuses his behavior due to alcohol, when he'd been hanging to this email for months knowing that it was from someone susceptible to suicide and self-harm. Why? Because this **** turns him on and a few others on. It gives HIM (Alexander) pleasure to see someone suffering. That is simply not normal behavior.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#225 - 2012-04-01 03:38:24 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:


What the other character said or did is not even and issue.

And because someone else might have lied, that's not reason to push them to their death. You cant justify or diminish the crime based on not liking what someone said.

It dosent stop being bullying.

What if the next person that make the claim Isnt lying?


We should not and do not base our cultural norms around mentally unstable people. They need to confront their particular reality and receive professional treatment otherwise a red light or rainy day is just as likely to push them over the tipping point as is someone being mean to them inside of a fake reality.
Thomas Orca
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2012-04-01 03:46:31 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Except he didn't. He got banned for crossing the line, be it drunk or not.

Exactly, because he was being an *******. He deserved what he got. However, given that he was referring to someone playing a video game who used RL suicide as a threat (something I find equally deplorable to inciting suicide), I hardly think "cyber-bully" is appropriate.



What the other character said or did is not even and issue.

And because someone else might have lied, that's not reason to push them to their death. You cant justify or diminish the crime based on not liking what someone said. .


"What the other person said is irrelevant!"
"What the other person said is relevant!"

Make up your ******* mind.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2012-04-01 03:46:44 UTC
I love how Goons and pets have worked so hard to build the shithole rep that they have and when it comes around to bite them in the ass they cry like little ponies being bombarded from orbit.

Sorry Goons...your dear leader ****** up bigtime. He was wrong, you are wrong and now you will forever be remembered for this one point in EvE's history when you all went emo after losing the fight.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#228 - 2012-04-01 03:47:27 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Semantics. You're getting caught on the wiki definition of "cyber-bully", which is fine by me. Obviously it bothers Alexander to be associated with cyber-bullying but he's only attempting to grasp to any strings he possibly can. But he is a bully and he does it by meta-gaming and using the game as his tool.

Fair enough. I don't really see his or Goon actions as "bullying" per se because I don't see them targeting the same person over and over. If you want to get technical, you could say they "bully the game", but it's a PvP sandbox.

MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
He spits in the air all of the time. This time he swollowed and obviously didn't like the taste. This interview was nothing but him bitching about meta-gaming and about it not being fair to him. Ironic, isn't it?

I didn't actually get that from him but then, I just think Goons are a bunch of people who like to play video games together. He certainly is arrogant, but I also feel like he owned up to being an ******* and apologized appropriately.

MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
And again he excuses his behavior due to alcohol, when he'd been hanging to this email for months knowing that it was from someone susceptible to suicide and self-harm. Why? Because this **** turns him on and a few others on. It gives HIM (Alexander) pleasure to see someone suffering. That is simply not normal behavior.

Again, I may get arrogant from him, but not sadist.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#229 - 2012-04-01 03:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

What "label" would you use exactly? Truthfully?

Also, can you understand why the "media" or laymen might use that term vs, incitement to suicide?



Would it really even be considered harassment considering this occurred within a completely option leisure activity that has pre-existing anonymity through derived character names and mechanisms to avoid unwanted interactions? It didn't impact either his livelihood nor his personal identity space.

The media and laymen both have preconceived notions when it comes to videogames and the media is in the business of selling ad revenue through sensationalism not actual information distribution and public education.


It's beyond simple harassment, has nothing to do really with preconceived notions of "video games" and is actionable in at least 3 countries (AUS, GB, and US), 2 of which CCP does direct business in where they could suffer liability. That's why the ban happened, and why an official statement from CCP occurred. CCPs legal exposure here is quite significant. Ginger Magician for instance did not get an official CCP statement when he was banned for threatening a player's RL welfare, he just got perma-banned because he was not inciting anyone else, and violated in-game rules (now called the "magic circle").

One more time:

Quote:
"Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [redacted], he has his own corp. Find him."


The above was proclaimed by Alex only after setting-up a premeditated presentation that was used in part to mock a specific in-game player who claimed to be suicidal in real life. It may not be 100% technically accurate, but it is also not disingenuous for anyone including the media to call his suggestion to harass a player until they went over the edge to commit suicide, "cyber-bullying".

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#230 - 2012-04-01 04:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Karl Hobb wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Semantics. You're getting caught on the wiki definition of "cyber-bully", which is fine by me. Obviously it bothers Alexander to be associated with cyber-bullying but he's only attempting to grasp to any strings he possibly can. But he is a bully and he does it by meta-gaming and using the game as his tool.

Fair enough. I don't really see his or Goon actions as "bullying" per se because I don't see them targeting the same person over and over. If you want to get technical, you could say they "bully the game", but it's a PvP sandbox.

MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
He spits in the air all of the time. This time he swollowed and obviously didn't like the taste. This interview was nothing but him bitching about meta-gaming and about it not being fair to him. Ironic, isn't it?

I didn't actually get that from him but then, I just think Goons are a bunch of people who like to play video games together. He certainly is arrogant, but I also feel like he owned up to being an ******* and apologized appropriately.

MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
And again he excuses his behavior due to alcohol, when he'd been hanging to this email for months knowing that it was from someone susceptible to suicide and self-harm. Why? Because this **** turns him on and a few others on. It gives HIM (Alexander) pleasure to see someone suffering. That is simply not normal behavior.

Again, I may get arrogant from him, but not sadist.

I have to disagree. In my opinion and to me saving emails of suicide-inclined players as trophies and sharing them to point and laugh is not arrogance, but rather sadism. And to me he went way over the line with that one. Him asking others to incite suicide was just additional **** to up the ante.

I saw the interview. And his concern laid exclusively with his well-being and how he feels wronged. Basically, he apologized for being drunk, not for premeditating and realizing the whole incident. I realize not everyone will find this behavior as abhorrent as I do. But his hypocrisy is undenying.

By the way, I have no doubt in my mind that had this situation turned for the worse (and the player had committed suicide) and without CCP intervention that the goons and Alexander himself would not just have washed their hands clean but would have also proudly enjoyed some laughs and giggles over it.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2012-04-01 04:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Doc Fury wrote:
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

What "label" would you use exactly? Truthfully?

Also, can you understand why the "media" or laymen might use that term vs, incitement to suicide?



Would it really even be considered harassment considering this occurred within a completely option leisure activity that has pre-existing anonymity through derived character names and mechanisms to avoid unwanted interactions? It didn't impact either his livelihood nor his personal identity space.

The media and laymen both have preconceived notions when it comes to videogames and the media is in the business of selling ad revenue through sensationalism not actual information distribution and public education.


It's beyond simple harassment, has nothing to do really with preconceived notions of "video games" and is actionable in at least 3 countries (AUS, GB, and US), 2 of which CCP does direct business in where they could suffer liability. That's why the ban happened, and why an official statement from CCP occurred. CCPs legal exposure here is quite significant. Ginger Magician for instance did not get an official CCP statement when he was banned for threatening a player's RL welfare, he just got perma-banned because he was not inciting anyone else, and violated in-game rules (now called the "magic circle").

One more time:

Quote:
"Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [redacted], he has his own corp. Find him."


The above was proclaimed by Alex only after setting-up a premeditated presentation that illustrated a specific in-game player claimed to be suicidal in real life. It may not be 100% technically accurate, but it is also not disingenuous for anyone including the media to call his suggestion to harass a player until they went over the edge to commit suicide, "cyber-bullying".



Thats what made it clear cut. In game character or not, knowing his real name or not. He was inciting people to drive him to IRL suicide.

And how long would it have been before someone found out his IRL name and took it further then just the game. This is the type of stuff that has happened in many other cases of cyber stalking and bullying.

He basically was painting a target on the guy. And in cases of cyber lynch mobs I do not doubt it would have bleed over beyond just the game in short order. Especially with a group like the goons whom do out of game meta crap all the time.

Mittani had Upped the stakes in this situation in a really dangerous way. Most rational people saw that. And wisely went to the mattress on the issue.

Thats why this was dead serious stuff.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2012-04-01 04:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Frederick Sanger
If you really think this is in anyway actionable on any shore you need to immediately get your law degree refunded. The context in which this situation occurred and the surrounding frivolity make it too ridiculous to ever consider. He clearly tried to have the man killed. Why isn't he in prison? Roll


Again with Mitten's real name. You're clearly not obsessed and fixated at all.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#233 - 2012-04-01 04:30:05 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
In my opinion and to me saving emails of suicide-inclined players as trophies and sharing them to point and laugh is not arrogance, but rather sadism. And to me he went way over the line with that one. Him asking others to incite suicide was just additional **** to up the ante.


Having been in no less than a dozen corporations with my various alts over the years where this kind of thing was standard fare, color me less than impressed by the bold. Making people extremely mad, upset, and generally unwilling to log in and fight back has been a mainstay of EVE pvp since I created character number one back in 2004.

As for the incite to suicide bit, you can characterize the apology as a feint if you like, but the apology was for that action. He may not have fully bent over, gracefully quit EVE of his own volition forever, and whatever other extreme penance the forum-alt community was clamoring for, but he made a public apology and a private one with the guy and even sent him isk.

I've been frank from the get-go of this shitstorm that the address was his gaff, premeditated or drunkenly conjured by a fel wizard hat. But, in terms of EVE conduct in general that was a toe-step over the line. Considering the responses from the mittani detractors was not merely mind-games, but direct physical threats (complete with address listing), I think you can extrapolate there's a whole lot more sadism tucked away in the unknown lurker publords than in the mind of one king of space.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#234 - 2012-04-01 04:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Frederick Sanger wrote:


If you really think this is in anyway actionable on any shore you need to immediately get your law degree refunded. The context in which this situation occurred and the surrounding frivolity make it too ridiculous to ever consider. He clearly tried to have the man killed. Why isn't he in prison? Roll


Again with Mitten's real name. You're clearly not obsessed and fixated at all.


I did not ever say Alex tried to have anyone killed as you incorrectly countered. That would be murder. What he did was to incite others to attempt to drive someone to end their own life. That's incited suicide.

It's also usually only legally actionable if the player who was "bullied" presses charges, or he actually killed himself.

CCP's legal exposure is very significant if either should happen, and regardless, this whole debacle paints a bad picture to the media, consumers, partners and competitors because CCP allowed it to occur in a venue they promoted and sponsored and supposedly vetted for 3rd party content.

I already explained previously why using anything but Alex's real name in this specific situation is appropriate, which has nothing to do with fixation or obsession no matter how much you might want to perceive or spin it that way to suit your argument.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#235 - 2012-04-01 04:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
OfBalance wrote:
Considering the responses from the mittani detractors was not merely mind-games, but direct physical threats (complete with address listing), I think you can extrapolate there's a whole lot more sadism tucked away in the unknown lurker publords than in the mind of one king of space.


He (or anyone who receives a RL threat) should definitely alert the appropriate authorities and then CCP without delay.

Such revelations do not have any place being regurgitated here, and would only serve to fan the flames and entice other "publords" to join-in or follow along.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2012-04-01 04:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Frederick Sanger
Doc Fury wrote:
Frederick Sanger wrote:


If you really think this is in anyway actionable on any shore you need to immediately get your law degree refunded. The context in which this situation occurred and the surrounding frivolity make it too ridiculous to ever consider. He clearly tried to have the man killed. Why isn't he in prison? Roll


Again with Mitten's real name. You're clearly not obsessed and fixated at all.


It's only actionable if the player who was "bullied" presses charges, or he actually killed himself.

CCP's legal exposure is very significant if either should happen, and regardless, this whole debacle paints a bad picture to the media, consumers, partners and competitors because CCP allowed it to occur in a venue they promoted and sponsored and supposedly vetted for 3rd party content.

I already explained previously why using anything but Alex's real name in this specific situation is appropriate, which has nothing to do with fixation or obsession no matter how much you might want to perceive or spin it that way to suit your argument.


There's very little legal exposure, if any at all. At worst it was poor media exposure they were concerned about. The victim was an middle-aged adult which nearly absolves CCP of any legal culpability. Had this been a minor or juvenile, the circumstances would be vastly different.

Your absurd rationality for utilizing Mitten's real name is not in anyway appropriate.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#237 - 2012-04-01 05:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Frederick Sanger wrote:


There's very little legal exposure, if any at all. At worst it was poor media exposure they were concerned about. The victim was an middle-aged adult which nearly absolves CCP of any legality. Had this been a minor or juvenile, the circumstances would be vastly different.



For a "cyber bulling" legal action perhaps. But you and your ilk keep saying that's not what happened here at all, and I agree. incitement to suicide however, applies to any age. There are cases being tried in the US right now.

Frederick Sanger wrote:

Your absurd rationality for utilizing Mitten's real name is not in anyway appropriate.


I can only quote your dear leader here: ~deal with it~

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2012-04-01 05:24:49 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:


For a "cyber bulling" legal action perhaps. But you and your ilk keep saying that's not what happened here at all, and I agree. incitement to suicide however, applies to any age. There are cases being tried in the US right now.


Incitement of suicide of a middle-aged adult over video games? Seriously. The look on that judge's face would be priceless.

Doc Fury wrote:

Frederick Sanger wrote:

Your absurd rationality for utilizing Mitten's real name is not in anyway appropriate.


I can only quote your dear leader here: ~deal with it~


I should quote you EULA / TOS that shows where you are clearly in the wrong but I'd rather say that I sincerely hope you truly do deal with it and get some professional help.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#239 - 2012-04-01 05:31:16 UTC
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


For a "cyber bulling" legal action perhaps. But you and your ilk keep saying that's not what happened here at all, and I agree. incitement to suicide however, applies to any age. There are cases being tried in the US right now.


Incitement of suicide of a middle-aged adult over video games? Seriously. The look on that judge's face would be priceless.

Doc Fury wrote:

Frederick Sanger wrote:

Your absurd rationality for utilizing Mitten's real name is not in anyway appropriate.


I can only quote your dear leader here: ~deal with it~


I should quote you EULA / TOS that shows where you are clearly in the wrong but I'd rather say that I sincerely hope you truly do deal with it and get some professional help.



Yeah the judge would be horrified someone would do such a thing and lock the person up for a number of years. While thier assets are civilly actioned against to pay the victims families.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#240 - 2012-04-01 05:32:20 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


For a "cyber bulling" legal action perhaps. But you and your ilk keep saying that's not what happened here at all, and I agree. incitement to suicide however, applies to any age. There are cases being tried in the US right now.


Incitement of suicide of a middle-aged adult over video games? Seriously. The look on that judge's face would be priceless.

Doc Fury wrote:

Frederick Sanger wrote:

Your absurd rationality for utilizing Mitten's real name is not in anyway appropriate.


I can only quote your dear leader here: ~deal with it~


I should quote you EULA / TOS that shows where you are clearly in the wrong but I'd rather say that I sincerely hope you truly do deal with it and get some professional help.



Yeah the judge would be horrified someone would do such a thing and lock the person up for a number of years. While thier assets are civilly actioned against to pay the victims families.


Hey man, let it go.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]