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Sansha's Nation Emigrants?
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Oko Paal
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#1 - 2012-03-30 21:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Oko Paal
In PF there is not much details (or at least I have not found) on the difference between tightly controlled and free-of-implant members of the Nation. We can read that even after the big war campaign on Sansha's community, when many escaped back to their empires of origin, a lot of people stayed and from them has formed a class called True Citizens.

Opposed to True Citizens, True Slaves bear implants, with variable strength of control. Some Slaves have autonomy on level, almost, as True Citizens. Tho, they are under eye of the system and any thought on escaping the duty and the Nation is punished by tightening mind control and dependency on the central server.

"(...) scientists, researchers, philosophers, and other intellectuals (...) Sansha's most trusted battlefield commanders (...)" and other high-ranked members of the society are implant-less and staying there out of ideological or opportunistic reasons. I guess, even if they have any back-thoughts, they must do really well to hide them or face transfer to True Slaves part of the society.

I wonder have successful escapes happened, have True Citizens departed after initial run-off during the war, and does someone include this in RP.

Is there, if at all possible, a single known escape happened from True Slaves and anyone got rid-off the implant? (If not under strict control and having it for short - consequences should be less severe and death avoided upon implant extraction.)

So, has anyone RP-ed something like this and do you think that there is any potential having this approach in building back-story?

Of course, it would be very interesting to see what members of True Slave Foundation and other pro-Sansha corps think about it.
Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#2 - 2012-03-31 00:49:47 UTC
Keep in mind this is my general perception of the Nation, and some aspects are extrapolated from what little Prime Fiction exists on the matter.


In the Pre-Invasion Nation, the one a century ago, those unimplanted or not loyal to Sansha fled from the Nation for one reason or another. Survival, or horror at Sansha's True Slave project, are the two most common factors I usually pick.

Your position that there are people without implants, specifically the True Slave implants, in the Nation is off I think. No one in the Nation is without implants, everyone from the lowest of menial True Slaves to the greatest True Citizens has Sansha's will installed into them. The wikipedia article hints at this the best as a source point, and some communique from the True Citizens hint in that direction as well.

In general, the Prime Fiction points towards leaving the Nation as an impossibility - the most I have seen is rescuing a recently implanted person within a short window before full control settles in. At that point, they become inseparable - removing the implants leads to insanity and death. What this window is isn't clearly defined, but as things vary between people it could be as small as a day to as long as a month or more. That is an intentional gray area, I believe.

If there have been escapees, I imagine they fall under that small abduction window. I have never heard of in the Prime Fiction of any True Slave or True Citizen leaving the Nation willingly, or surviving after being severed from Sansha's will and the communal Hive Mind. Players often make escapee characters, particularly in the wake of the Incursion expansion, but because of how much a wall banger they tend to be they are usually not considered seriously.


As to my personal opinion on the matter, I find the entire idea distasteful at best, and artistically threatening at worse. The Nation is fundamentally built on the philosophy of the human consciousness, the implications of mind control, and the effects of a shared communal mind. The idea that Sansha's mind control and indoctrination can be reversed after the point of no return threatens the very reason the faction exists. A similar thing would happen to the Amarr; prove God doesn't exist beyond a shadow of a doubt, and their entire civilization implodes.

I am very curious as to why you are interested in this subject, if you care to comment on that.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ
Aquila Shadow
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-03-31 01:45:40 UTC
In the book "The Burning Life" by Hjalti Danielsson there is mentio of Nation agents being able to leave at will.

"....In fact, we're encouraged to desert the faction if our conscience demands it. Nation would much rather have their agents committed to the cause then risk having them turn coat and ruin a Nation invasion."

- Page 94 Paragraph 1

                                              "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword"
Oko Paal
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#4 - 2012-03-31 01:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Oko Paal
First of all I want to thank you for the reply.

Let me start this way... Creating and deleting few characters and searching for race, playstyle and - RP back-story that might provide me nice main RP-arc I would follow (and leaving me a lot of space for other RP roles) I came to Oko.

Idea for Oko's back-story is that promising young member of Caldari special forces, when at one point first-time confronted with an incursion, strayed a bit from his unit to see closer what is like this Nation in which his parent/grandparents once took part long time ago as engineers/scientists (and then fled back home, of course). He was captured, but love for one of his best pilots led Caldari SpecOps commander to search for him. They freed him (part in which I need help with details) soon.

Experience he survived make him not suitable for State forces anymore, and he left. Then, the idea that there is, even so small, probability to make a person free from the Hive Mind, makes him open a scientific program to research the matter further. He gets sponsored by rich CEO whose wife and child were taken in one of Incursions and he starts small company and runs experiments/researchers coped with a lot of theorizing and some practical work. What if it is possible to make freed even fully integrated Nation members. It might not be possible at all, but he feels the need to go that way.

Now, we know from one chronicle that normal discussion with True Citizen is possible, so this opens possibility for player-run TC/TS RP. Trying to find them, to establish contact and to discuss with them is possible... All is part of research on how SN functions.

This is not all he does in his life, but out of military service while still young, and with not much possibility to work on the SN matters that often, general education/exploration of New Eden and its cultures opens up for Oko.

These are sketches so far, but seem as viable ones. If accepted by player-run SN community, other way (almost) pointless, of course.

So, maybe I rushed with spending money of that rich CEO sponsor on registering company and for decoration :) (I had to try that option) and this whole story might be unaccepted by RP (SN) community, but still I do not think of it as a bad taste. Maybe you also connect it with mentioned wall-bangers... Even Godless Amarr or the one who wants to free his slaves may be (role-) played well (oh, I am sure I read on forums someone has been whining there been lack of conservative Amarr character).

You just need a bit work with and support from community. Therefor I really hoped for a reply from True Slaves (and similar, if any) members.
Oko Paal
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#5 - 2012-03-31 02:01:46 UTC
Thank you for the quote Aquila.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#6 - 2012-03-31 03:42:18 UTC
The Plague Years is a good chron to go to for some insight into your question, as well..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Oko Paal
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#7 - 2012-03-31 12:40:31 UTC
Yes Roga, I refer to it in my second post here, it is the one where we see that "normal" behaviour and dialogue is what we can expect from Citizens, as opposed to "mindless zombie" thing. I guess that is one of cornerstones for player-run SN characters.. Thanks for naming it.
Oko Paal
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#8 - 2012-03-31 13:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Oko Paal
Okay, after brief discussion in True Slaves OOC public channel, it seems I have to narrow things a bit.

There is STRONG dogma and attitude "do not touch our impossibility to be free-willed again" and (boring) repetition of known facts, known from very little PF there is. Also fear that it must/will be as simple as "I will cure Sansha" is a bit annoying. Good. Probably very bad experience, or something.

(Tho Aquila quoted the Burning Life book, which states that free will is possible to be gained back, which is interesting. Or just simply ignored.)

"[There is no such thing as free will in Sansha's Nation. (...) Free will is inimical to the idea of Sansha's Nation." Okay, how anyone outside SN knows about this? How people know that it is NOT possible to be freed? By research and investigation. So a place for RP.

SN can not be cured. As well as cancer. People usually never-ever surrender trying impossible thing. So a place for RP.

This continues, but just two examples are enough to get the picture. I tried to talk on small sample of player-run SN members, so please take this with reserve.

But it leaves a bit of bad taste in mouth when a possibility for RP is welcomed from particular community like this, at the very beginning. Talking to self-contempt group of RP-ers is no fun. And even if we find way and place in New Eden for a corp that is oriented to investigate SN, to try to understand it from outside in a systematical way, I am not sure it will be fun...

Hope someone "from inside" finds a need to reply and clarify more.


EDIT: Would researching SN society, TN, TS, Hive Mind, possibilities of freeing people even after prolonged time spent with implants, etc. through Arek'Jaalan be viable?
Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#9 - 2012-03-31 19:38:52 UTC
The ones you are referring to in The Plague Years and The Burning Life are not actual True Citizens, or not explained clearly as such. In the rest of the section Aquila is mentioning, the same Sansha agent refers to how his particular kind have the most minimal of tracking implants installed, so that the Nation can monitor them. They do not have full True Slave or True Citizen implantation. This is most likely to avoid compromising the agents with the Nation's signature cybernetics, I'd wager.

In the same section, the agent also remarks that even when people leave / are removed from the Nation (where applicable), they "always come back". He speculates if its some part of our darker inner human selves, or something else. I could take this indicative of his view point, or as inviolable PF, but the angle its introduced from is a character and not a narrator. I can quote the relevant pages if necessary.

Make no mistake in that, I think, no one is trying to stop you from roleplaying. I at least am not indirectly implying so, I am merely stating what will be the most plausible reaction from the Sansha to your attempts at doing so. It exists in the EVE world that people are trying to find a way of freeing people from Sansha's Nation. It's when the trying part becomes succeeding, instead of failing, does it begin to seriously threaten the artistic value of the Nation. That's when the wall banging begins, and Sansha players who feel its impossible to be free from the Nation become disinclined to be involved with players doing it. That roleplay is succeeding at making theirs fundamentally invalid.

There are player corporations who investigate Sansha's Nation in the way you want, and numerous other organizations who have at one point or the other also ran investigations into the matter. Aquila's corporation, The Synenose Accord, makes it one of the main priorities in fighting the Nation I think. You'd have to talk with them on the specifics. Other societies that I know also did so at one point, although I don't know if they do currently. You can find players that do what you want.

I have no idea what you mean by self-contempt, honestly.

As to Arek'Jaalan, their primary focus is in the ancient civilizations like the Sleepers. They have some tangential interest in the Nation, mostly because the Sansha also have wormhole generator technology. They are not as specific as you want, I think, but I'll leave that to people who are actually involved in the A'J project.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#10 - 2012-03-31 20:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Agreed, the Agent of Nation in the chron doesn't seem to warrant a True Citizen or True Slave epitaph.. But, it does hint at some of the generalities.. Such as the effects of Nation on those conquered and the relatives of those patriated by Nation.. Would someone who escaped the re-education and removed the implants remain functional, let alone functionally sane..?

I would think that anyone who DID escape from Nation would have some serious impairments to their faculties, and a very interesting RP position..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
LOL56
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#11 - 2012-04-02 03:01:14 UTC
This paragraph form the original Sansha's Nation Chronicle seems relevant.

"After the revelation of Sansha’s twisted experiments, the Nation lost most of its inhabitants. Only the fanatics and the True Slaves remained."

This, to me, seems to indicate that the majority of the citizens of the original, pre CONCORD invasion, Nation were not implanted, or at least had no implants to forcibly take control of them.
Daniel L'Siata
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#12 - 2012-04-02 13:17:29 UTC
Once a part of Nation, always a part of Nation.

Also, Arek'Jalaan interest in the Nation is almost entirely related to their technology.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#13 - 2012-04-02 13:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
As seen in other chronicles, there is an almost culturally ingrained search for the Utopian society in New Eden. There will always be the disenfranchised, disposessed, disillusioned flipfloppers who will grasp at straws, even those offered by a totalitarian, socialist agenda as sinister as Nation.

The populations, as evidenced in other threads, is monumental, I doubt there is even the possibility of an accurate census in New Eden. Emmigration is likely haphazardly monitored, at best.

Many of those will flock BACK to Nation as it's fortunes wax..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.