These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pax Amarria npc good = free nocx
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sturmwolke
#21 - 2012-03-31 03:08:03 UTC
Ank Parkor wrote:

Matter of volumes essentially, it is hard to find a station with hundred of thousands books Smile


You need to figure out how so few orders generated so many Pax Amarria.
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-03-31 03:17:51 UTC
The obvious answer is bots, go on, blame the bots. :)

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#23 - 2012-03-31 03:46:18 UTC
Checking in to confirm that I did not cut the cheese.. err..spill the beans...




Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-03-31 04:46:03 UTC
I'm not sure it matters, there were people making a lot of money of this and I don't doubt that should you ever undock you'll be a target to some of them.

But this is MD - undocking is not required here.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
#25 - 2012-03-31 05:36:56 UTC
Skye Aurorae wrote:
I'm not sure it matters, there were people making a lot of money of this and I don't doubt that should you ever undock you'll be a target to some of them.

But this is MD - undocking is not required here.


I was already out of the bag :P I just reposted.

Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524
Mookie Quantico
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-03-31 09:36:29 UTC
Much like the Shuttle=Trit days of old, CCP might (TM) eventually fix this. Blink

UNLIKE the Days Of Old, CCP now has the Launcher to make changes to the game any old time they want to... like each and every Downtime, rather than specified releases or "patch days".

Keep rolling those dice. Blink

Mook
Shar Tegral
#27 - 2012-03-31 11:38:58 UTC
Skye Aurorae wrote:
The obvious answer is bots, go on, blame the bots. :)

Okay, I bought 50k units (which netted me 300K nox to dump on the market) in 1 second.
Even a bot can not do that.

It's been said before, "Some of you just don't know how the market works."

Believe that.
Adam Aksyfar
Diversified Astronautic Solutions Group
#28 - 2012-03-31 14:44:17 UTC
Riley Moore wrote:
Skye Aurorae wrote:
I'm not sure it matters, there were people making a lot of money of this and I don't doubt that should you ever undock you'll be a target to some of them.

But this is MD - undocking is not required here.


I was already out of the bag :P I just reposted.


Ha, I'll take the credit for sharing. Price caps are stupid. Come at me rich bros.
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-03-31 15:40:32 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Skye Aurorae wrote:
The obvious answer is bots, go on, blame the bots. :)

Okay, I bought 50k units (which netted me 300K nox to dump on the market) in 1 second.
Even a bot can not do that.

It's been said before, "Some of you just don't know how the market works."

Believe that.



And some of you don't understand how sarcasm & irony works.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
Zircon Dasher
#30 - 2012-03-31 19:15:51 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Driftfire wrote:
Regardless of available volume I do not think that CCP would want to nerf this.

Why?

It is an ISK SINK.

You buy Pax Amarr and isk goes out the system. Ok Nocx and Iso get added - but ISK exits the system


Technically, yes it is an ISK sink, but it encourages ISK faucet use at the expense of mining. If minerals can't rise in price enough, then why go mine, might as well shoot rats and add more money to the system. Just a few people could sustain the entire Eve economy at these prices, all those people not mining are going to be doing ... what?

This is essentially a subsidy for everyone that does not mine Nocx, if you want to look at it at from a different perspective. It's things like this that are partly responsible for the Eve economy being in a rather curious predicament.


While your statement is solidly grounded in theory, it is not backed up by reality. A quick look at forum threads, QEN data, and market history (if you happen to have a private history that goes back far enough) will confirm that even when NPC's sold shuttles there were plenty of people mining low end roids. As mineral prices approached the levels where NPC shuttles could be refined, people did not switch away from mining low ends, even though just a few people could sustain the entire EVE economy at those prices.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2012-03-31 20:15:29 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:

While your statement is solidly grounded in theory, it is not backed up by reality. A quick look at forum threads, QEN data, and market history (if you happen to have a private history that goes back far enough) will confirm that even when NPC's sold shuttles there were plenty of people mining low end roids. As mineral prices approached the levels where NPC shuttles could be refined, people did not switch away from mining low ends, even though just a few people could sustain the entire EVE economy at those prices.


Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Zircon Dasher
#32 - 2012-03-31 21:01:23 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:

While your statement is solidly grounded in theory, it is not backed up by reality. A quick look at forum threads, QEN data, and market history (if you happen to have a private history that goes back far enough) will confirm that even when NPC's sold shuttles there were plenty of people mining low end roids. As mineral prices approached the levels where NPC shuttles could be refined, people did not switch away from mining low ends, even though just a few people could sustain the entire EVE economy at those prices.


Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.


For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand.

If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs.

All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#33 - 2012-03-31 22:09:04 UTC
You're kind of backwards on all of that with NPC shuttles, you know. Yes, people still mined low end roids. The shuttles were the reason why trit never went over 3.6 per unit, however.

It's the same deal here, someone may still mine dark ochre or whatever else is a nocx bearing ore, but without pax amarria being nerfed, it's never going to go over 530ish or so again.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Adunh Slavy
#34 - 2012-03-31 22:11:07 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.


For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand.

If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs.

All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account.


Yes, below NPC cost. It is when reproc of shuttles became profitable that the issue was apparent. No one is going to reproc shuttles when trit is at .80, which if you recall wasn't too uncommon many years ago.

And yes, mining scales across a lot of accounts rather well, it does not scale as well across a number of players since they all want to be paid. Slaves cost nothing but food, or in this case, paid account time, the same base cost as a solo player. All those extra mining accounts were not out shooting rats, they were adding to the overall productive capacity. You are attempting to equate one player with one account, this does not work and just goes to prove my point.

The reason mining scales this way is because it is so god awful boring, which is a different subject.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Zircon Dasher
#35 - 2012-04-01 01:16:39 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.


For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand.

If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs.

All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account.


Yes, below NPC cost. It is when reproc of shuttles became profitable that the issue was apparent. No one is going to reproc shuttles when trit is at .80, which if you recall wasn't too uncommon many years ago.

And yes, mining scales across a lot of accounts rather well, it does not scale as well across a number of players since they all want to be paid. Slaves cost nothing but food, or in this case, paid account time, the same base cost as a solo player. All those extra mining accounts were not out shooting rats, they were adding to the overall productive capacity. You are attempting to equate one player with one account, this does not work and just goes to prove my point.

The reason mining scales this way is because it is so god awful boring, which is a different subject.


I dont have much time so will put things in bullet points. This is merely for expediency.

1) I specifically did not equate 1 player with 1 account. Please reread.
2) You said that if price does not rise then people will switch to shooting rats. History shows this is not true.
3) When shuttles were removed from NPC sales it was based upon a genuine supply vs. demand issue (capital changes iirc). SInce current price spikes are linked heavily to something that has not happened, speculation seems to be a large driver. That is not to say there is not an increase in demand overall, but this was not an issue prior to the drone region announcement. Basket prices and all that.....
4) Since you relied heavily upon opportunity cost as a reason for mineral caps being ISK inflationary, I felt obligated to say that isk is a pretty innacurate way of predicting behavior. Mining is particularly bad because of the boring nature, scalability and general lack of attention being required. Moreover, I would posit that an increase in CPI will drive more ISK faucet suckling. I can get into more detail if you wish at a later point.

I should be clear by saying I am all for removing artificial caps in theory. I am also all for increasing mining payouts. Just not sure an artificial cap is game breaking at this moment in time.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Adunh Slavy
#36 - 2012-04-01 02:46:02 UTC
1) "To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account."

Is there some magic here where one player running multiple accounts turns into two players running those same accounts when they stop mining? So what's the one account go do when the other is dropped? Is he still mining or doing something else?

2) Please show me your data. Or perhaps we can examine the countless threads of players on these forums over the past few years talking about how mining isn't worth the time.

3) Circular reasoning. Think carefully about what you wrote.

4) I offerd the idea that some people will choose not to mine if the time and effort are not worth the reward compared to to other activities, one of those activities could be shooting rats. It is the simplest to enter and has one of the lowest cost barriers in the game, it is the most likely canidate. If my having neglected to describe the path of least restiance is somehow objectionable, consider it described.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Ronja Mistysdottir
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-04-01 10:05:43 UTC
Maybe we could have NPC's start selling battleships / dreads and carriers as well at a fixed price of 2 x base-price, like the books are?
That will be a nice ISK drain.

I am sure miners will still mine
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
#38 - 2012-04-01 12:16:33 UTC
As of this DT, ccp removed the npc sell orders.


Get ready to cash in on all your nocx!

Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-04-01 12:19:27 UTC
TIME TO ENTER PANIC MODE
Driftfire
Northern Star Enterprises
#40 - 2012-04-01 12:35:31 UTC
Between The Forge (Jita) and Domain it looks like 91mil unites of Pax Amarr were brought.

This gives 547 Mil nocx.

I guess I bunch of this has already been dropped.

Long-term Jita volume ~100mil unites nocx/day. ( I assume this is buys & sells)

So have fun peeps....