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These events should prove the sandbox...
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My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-03-30 14:55:57 UTC
Just take a second... stop crying. stop bitching, stop trolling...Shocked and look around...

No matter your stance on any of the events that have transpired since Fan Fest, this all just proves the theory of the sandbox we all love. The fact that any of this could actually happen at all, and have the impact on the game and the community like it has.

EVE > everything else


/just a thought

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Nirnias Stirrum
UberWTFBBQ and Battle Technologies
#2 - 2012-03-30 14:58:11 UTC
yup, good point!
TkAlligator38
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-03-30 15:01:30 UTC
Eve. Anything goes. Until we decide to ***** and moan like the hypocrites we are. This crap is nearly as bad as the microtransaction whinefest last year.
Amity Lane
Hek Mining Association
#4 - 2012-03-30 15:07:38 UTC
Even in the free play of the sandbox, if one of the children starts hitting the others over the head with his shovel the parent will take him out as punishment.

I think everyone would do well to remember that.
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-03-30 15:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Amity Lane wrote:
Even in the free play of the sandbox, if one of the children starts hitting the others over the head with his shovel the parent will take him out as punishment.

I think everyone would do well to remember that.



If you don't like getting bullied, stay off the playground.

People who try to turn this game soft ARE THE PROBLEM, IMO.

EVE IS HARD, EVE IS CUT THROAT. This is the main thing that makes EVE what it is and sets it apart from all the other all-you-kids-play-nice-and-share type of games

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-03-30 15:14:30 UTC
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Amity Lane
Hek Mining Association
#7 - 2012-03-30 15:15:01 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Amity Lane wrote:
Even in the free play of the sandbox, if one of the children starts hitting the others over the head with his shovel the parent will take him out as punishment.

I think everyone would do well to remember that.



If you don't like getting bullied, stay off the playground.

People who try to turn this game soft ARE THE PROBLEM, IMO.

EVE IS HARD, EVE IS CUT THROAT. This is the main thing that makes EVE what it is and sets it apart from all the other all-you-kids-play-nice-and-share type of games

I think perhaps my analogy wasn't clear.

What I meant is that even sandboxes have rules, and that when you start operating outside of those rules you should be punished. There have to be realistic limitations to freedom.

Even with those limitations in place, this MMO is light-years (pun intended) ahead of any other popular MMO out there in terms of player freedom.
Amity Lane
Hek Mining Association
#8 - 2012-03-30 15:16:35 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.

By far and away the best post I've seen on this forum yet.
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-03-30 15:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.



I was unaware EVE came with instructions....


IMO, the sandbox means do what you want. If that means cooperation for you, then that's cool. If that means ganking for someone else, that's cool too. If CCP didnt want certain things to happen in game, they remove the ability for them to happen.

EVE is a result of programming. It is not an organic living creature. It is man-made. CCP built it. So if CCP made something possible in the game, then that means they intend for someone to do it.

If CCP thought a certain action in game was bad or should not be done, they would remove the ability for that action to even take place

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
TkAlligator38
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-30 15:22:04 UTC
Amity Lane wrote:
Even in the free play of the sandbox, if one of the children starts hitting the others over the head with his shovel the parent will take him out as punishment.

I think everyone would do well to remember that.


Comparing the eve community to a bunch of toddlers who cry out to mommy CCP is indeed the most accurate thing i've read today. No joke.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-03-30 15:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.



I was unaware EVE came with instructions....


IMO, the sandbox means do what you want. If that means cooperation for you, then that's cool. If that means ganking for someone else, that's cool too. If CCP didnt want certain things to happen in game, they remove the ability for them to happen.

EVE is a result of programming. It is not an organic living creature. It is man-made. CCP built it. So if CCP made something possible in the game, then that means they intend for someone to do it.

If CCP thought a certain action in game was bad or should not be done, they would remove the ability for that action to even take place


Instructions refer to things like EULA/TOS etc. sorry you can't interpolate the metaphor and have to twist it that I'm not sharing this view. Could have posed a question than assumed also. Roll

Let me try and be equally destructive to your posting now with supposition: Does this mean you ignore the terms of playing EvE as a result? Blink (Purely rhetorical of course, but also helps to demonstrate part of my previous post where people jump to conclusions to stick the knife in)

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-03-30 15:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Grumpy Owly wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.



I was unaware EVE came with instructions....


IMO, the sandbox means do what you want. If that means cooperation for you, then that's cool. If that means ganking for someone else, that's cool too. If CCP didnt want certain things to happen in game, they remove the ability for them to happen.

EVE is a result of programming. It is not an organic living creature. It is man-made. CCP built it. So if CCP made something possible in the game, then that means they intend for someone to do it.

If CCP thought a certain action in game was bad or should not be done, they would remove the ability for that action to even take place


Instructions refer to things like EULA/TOS etc. sorry you can't interpolate the metaphor and have to twist it that I'm not sharing this view. Could have posed a question than assumed also. Roll

Let me try and be equally destructive to your posting now with supposition: Does this mean you ignore the terms of playing EvE as a result? Blink (Purely rhetorical of course, but also helps to demonstrate part of my previous post where people jump to conclusions to stick the knife in)



I was not be destructive. Are you done being a condescending ****? Maybe you are the one that is assuming things about what I was posting.

IMO, if CCP put the mechanics in the sandbox, they were meant to be used. Whether everyone in the game likes it or not. That's all I was saying.

Maybe if you actually say "EULA" instead of "Instructions" I would have known what you meant. I wasn't trying to dispute anything with you, just pointing out that a sandbox is a sandbox because it doesnt come with instructions (outside the EULA)

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2012-03-30 15:44:56 UTC
I told another mmo we forced a chairman in our game to resign and he got his mind blown when i explained it.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#14 - 2012-03-30 15:46:10 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-03-30 15:46:55 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
I told another mmo we forced a chairman in our game to resign and he got his mind blown when i explained it.



Even though I disagree with most of what happened to mittens, you are right. This is the greatness of EVE that other MMO's just can't match.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-03-30 15:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh?

It could even be considered as socially nuturing, imagine that. Blink

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-03-30 15:55:25 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh? Blink


Yes, that is your opinion. Which you are free to have and practice.

We have ours, which we are free to have and practice.

They have theirs, which they are free to have and practice.

Thus...Sandbox...

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Azriel Geist
Pure Victory
#18 - 2012-03-30 15:59:12 UTC
Lost faith in OP after first post.

Grumpy Owly is a smart guy.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-03-30 16:01:30 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh? Blink


Yes, that is your opinion. Which you are free to have and practice.

We have ours, which we are free to have and practice.

They have theirs, which they are free to have and practice.

Thus...Sandbox...


Thats actually a good point.

But consider this ....

Surely it is better to convince your opponent of an idea so that he can equally support it rather than just deny or invalidate that opinion? As such this ignorance or refusal to accomodate others is also equally an exclusion of sandbox principles.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-03-30 16:01:51 UTC
Azriel Geist wrote:
Lost faith in OP after first post.

Grumpy Owly is a smart guy.



You really think we should all share the sandbox?

Then what would people fight over? This game is based on PvP experience. Not just combat but players trying to out-do other players. It's what eve is about.


I've lost faith in the EVE community as a whole because everyone thinks the game should be on even terms for everyone. When the entire concept of the game is just the opposite.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
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