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Vanquish the Devourer! 4.27.114

Author
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#81 - 2012-04-04 12:23:04 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Captain Mithra; since you speak of appreciating honest words, it would you do well to openly admit that your Empire's religion does indeed contain as its core beliefs the idea that the Amarrian people has been chosen by God to bring other peoples to His light, if necessary by conquest and slavery. Even the most peaceful Amarrian sects tend to disagree only on to what extent such violent means are necessary - not on the task God has given to the Empire.

That is not "my very own perception" of the Empire. It is what your nation is. Any discussion between us will be completely fruitless if you are unable to admit in public.


I admit it

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2012-04-04 12:28:53 UTC
Cpt. Rhiannon: You raise a valid point there, one that merits a response. I fear, though, that this response would - if doing justice to this point you raise - go far beyond the scope of this discussion here. So, I'd like to ask you to allow me to give this the proper treatment in another thread. I have the feeling that I already did enough to derail this one and would like to allow it to get back to it's intended purpose.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#83 - 2012-04-04 12:31:30 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
[quote=Elsebeth Rhiannon]Captain Mithra; since you speak of appreciating honest words, it would you do well to openly admit that your Empire's religion does indeed contain as its core beliefs the idea that the Amarrian people has been chosen by God to bring other peoples to His light, if necessary by conquest and slavery. Even the most peaceful Amarrian sects tend to disagree only on to what extent such violent means are necessary - not on the task God has given to the Empire. That is not "my very own perception" of the Empire. It is what your nation is. Any discussion between us will be completely fruitless if you are unable to admit in public.[/quote I admit it


This is why, Kithrus, you're among those in the Empire which I wish good fortune to, so that perhaps you can "heal the spirit". I, nor Kikia to my knowledge, nor Ms Rhiannon, wish to see the Empire as a whole destroyed. We wish to see it change

Those of you who can see that "the spirit of the Empire is sick" need to heal it. If you do not realize that sickness exists, you are just another Amarrian who endorses slavery, and thus, an enemy of the Minmatar people Nidhoggr, that which destroys, that which seeks to demolish established reality, is a creature which features again and again in Minmatar lore. Is it so hard to believe that my people have come to identify the Empire as "Nidhoggr"? That religion is as important to us, as it is to you? And that, hey, MAYBE we will have rituals which, you know, being of a very different culture, may seem very alien and inappropriate to you .

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#84 - 2012-04-04 12:47:32 UTC
Avlynka and Elsebeth have put it far more truthfully and bluntly then I could have.

No, I do not wish to see the Empire or its people destroyed, but the current culture, beliefs, and doctrines of the empire are patently a threat to us. As long as the idea of the reclaiming; of being so correct about your own beliefs that it is your sacred duty from your god to forcefully spread them; remains prevalent. I do not think there can be any true and lasting peace between our people. May we make cease fires? Yes. May we take breaks from the conflict? Yes.

But the core belief that forcefully spreading your religion and government will make us better will always loom there like a dark cloud. The devourer is always hungry. I do not think that anyone in New Eden not of the Amarrian faith is truly safe from the empire, not even your allies.

Turn or burn. I've heard the phrase in local enough to know that it is an attitude still held by many Amarrians. It is that idea that we seek to destroy. The hungry spirit that devours and spreads and enforces its will by laser and sword, is evil and needs to be destroyed. For the good of my people, for the good of the Amarrian people, and for the good of the cluster, it must happen.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#85 - 2012-04-04 12:55:14 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Captain Mithra; since you speak of appreciating honest words, it would you do well to openly admit that your Empire's religion does indeed contain as its core beliefs the idea that the Amarrian people has been chosen by God to bring other peoples to His light, if necessary by conquest and slavery. Even the most peaceful Amarrian sects tend to disagree only on to what extent such violent means are necessary - not on the task God has given to the Empire.

That is not "my very own perception" of the Empire. It is what your nation is. Any discussion between us will be completely fruitless if you are unable to admit in public.


I admit it

And it is warriors of the Empire who do that that give us any hope that this conflict will one day end. All wisdom begins from facing the facts.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2012-04-04 14:14:42 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Cpt. Fehrnah, I'm not surprised you put special emphasis on the 'sick' part and try to get the 'twisted and evil' part out of view. While I appreciate your attempt at reconciliation here, I don't agree in the least with your method of downplaying what has been said here. If the Spirit is 'simply' sick you'd try to heal it, not claim, as explicitly specified by Cpt. Truzhari, that it needs to be slain. I wouldn't have any problem with the 'sick' part, if it weren't quite clear from context ('Sick, twisted and evil' - sick being obviously part of this climaxing tricolon.) that not a medical condition is meant here. And even if the medical condition is meant, there is the 'twisted and evil' part left, spelling it out in quite clear terms.
And of course you aren't offended when someone is pointing out that your drooler is sick. But first, by the choice of your words is implied that it would indeed be sick, and second he probably wouldn't say: "Cpt Fehrnah, your slaver hound Fesh is sick, twisted and evil. It needs to be slain!" Think about that.
As to the 'misguided', I think I've been very specific in that Cpt. Truzhari is misguided in this for specific reasons. It's not at all about her being Matari. So, please, stop arguing with stereotypes, it's really below the standards of good debating

In regard to what Cpt. Farel said: Indeed, considerations about other cultures are often clumsy and we Amarr aren't innocent of doing equally stupid things. It doesn't change the fact that doing something like that is not acceptable, independent of who is doing it and of the fact that it is done quite often.


Maybe it is more about a "possesed spirit" concept, where the possessing spirit has to be slain to heal the possessed one ?

Ava Starfire wrote:
And that, hey, MAYBE we will have rituals which, you know, being of a very different culture, may seem very alien and inappropriate to you .


Does that include rituals to heal the Minmatar spirit too ?
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#87 - 2012-04-05 12:25:39 UTC
In response to Lyn Farel, yes.

The Minmatar people as a whole have been through a lot, and the word "a lot" is woefully inaccurate in this instance.

Centuries of slavery, followed by poverty. Id say that yes, the Minmatar spirit is in dire need of healing.

If only people would permit us to get on with that, eh?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#88 - 2012-04-05 19:40:09 UTC
Kikia Truzhari wrote:


No, I do not wish to see the Empire or its people destroyed, but the current culture, beliefs, and doctrines of the empire are patently a threat to us. As long as the idea of the reclaiming; of being so correct about your own beliefs that it is your sacred duty from your god to forcefully spread them; remains prevalent. I do not think there can be any true and lasting peace between our people. May we make cease fires? Yes. May we take breaks from the conflict? Yes.

But the core belief that forcefully spreading your religion and government will make us better will always loom there like a dark cloud. The devourer is always hungry. I do not think that anyone in New Eden not of the Amarrian faith is truly safe from the empire, not even your allies.

Turn or burn. I've heard the phrase in local enough to know that it is an attitude still held by many Amarrians. It is that idea that we seek to destroy. The hungry spirit that devours and spreads and enforces its will by laser and sword, is evil and needs to be destroyed. For the good of my people, for the good of the Amarrian people, and for the good of the cluster, it must happen.


No, I do not wish to see the Republic or its people destroyed, but the current culture, beliefs, and doctrines of the tribes are patently a threat to us. As long as the idea of terrorism; of being so correct about your own beliefs that it is your sacred duty from your ancestors to forcefully enforce them; remains prevalent. I do not think there can be any true and lasting peace between our people. May we make cease fires? No. May we take breaks from the conflict? No. -For Matari will not enter such pacts in goodwill toward us.

But the core belief that forcefully changing our religion and government will make us better will always loom there like a dark cloud. The devils are always hungry. I do not think that anyone in New Eden not of the Matari faith is truly safe from the tribes, not even your allies or yourselves.

God is evil and sick. I've heard the phrase in discussions enough to know that it is an attitude held by most Matari, who pay attention to religious discussion. It is that idea that we seek to destroy. The evil spirits that agitate and spread and drive its people to war by autocannon and dagger, are evil and need to be destroyed. For the good of my people, for the good of the Minmatar, and for the good of the cluster, it must happen.

I hope you liberals remember these words the next time the Matari pretend to airs of martyrdom.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-04-05 21:15:43 UTC
I don't know, Crow, I've never been asked to give up my beliefs by any Matari I've spoken with. No Matari has ever said or even hinted that I would be better off without my beliefs. No Matari has ever tried to push their beliefs on me without me asking about them.
Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#90 - 2012-04-05 23:45:54 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I don't know, Crow, I've never been asked to give up my beliefs by any Matari I've spoken with. No Matari has ever said or even hinted that I would be better off without my beliefs. No Matari has ever tried to push their beliefs on me without me asking about them.


We don't proselytize, we are perfectly content to let anyone walk whatever path they wish, provided it does not harm us. You have to jump though many, many, many hoops to prove you wish to be Matari. Not only do we not force it on anyone, we make it hard for even those who'd want to. One has to truly desire to become Matari, and prove it by action, to become one of us.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#91 - 2012-04-06 07:15:56 UTC
Kikia Truzhari wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I don't know, Crow, I've never been asked to give up my beliefs by any Matari I've spoken with. No Matari has ever said or even hinted that I would be better off without my beliefs. No Matari has ever tried to push their beliefs on me without me asking about them.


We don't proselytize, we are perfectly content to let anyone walk whatever path they wish, provided it does not harm us. You have to jump though many, many, many hoops to prove you wish to be Matari. Not only do we not force it on anyone, we make it hard for even those who'd want to. One has to truly desire to become Matari, and prove it by action, to become one of us.


Thousands apologies, I must have been mistaken. I thought I was in a public discussion of a religious event with the main attraction being spiritual warfare in an attempt to destroy 'the Spirit of Amarr.'

Yes we Amarrians practice Reclaiming, yes it is a part of our religious doctrine. Yes we practice slavery, yes it is part of our culture. Yes these two are in our doctrine and culture because of our beliefs.

Tribes are seeking to change all three through force. I care not one whit if you preach to the Gallante or not Truzhari. That is not what I said of you. So thank ms. Fehrnah for trying to shield you from what I did say.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Boma Airaken
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-04-06 08:03:31 UTC
Kikia Truzhari wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I don't know, Crow, I've never been asked to give up my beliefs by any Matari I've spoken with. No Matari has ever said or even hinted that I would be better off without my beliefs. No Matari has ever tried to push their beliefs on me without me asking about them.


We don't proselytize, we are perfectly content to let anyone walk whatever path they wish, provided it does not harm us. You have to jump though many, many, many hoops to prove you wish to be Matari. Not only do we not force it on anyone, we make it hard for even those who'd want to. One has to truly desire to become Matari, and prove it by action, to become one of us.


Slavery, which I personally do not support, is a part of someone "walking whatever path they wish", and whether or not it is harmful, is completely up in the air. The results of slavery in the name of the reclaiming are absolutely personal to the slave in question, as much as I am loathe to raise the point. I mean hell, who would know what the universe would look like were Drupar Maak never enslaved.

Regardless, I have no intention to interfere with or continue to comment on your juvenile and misguided ritual of ignorance and spiritual infancy. Just try to keep the smell and noise to manageable levels.
Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#93 - 2012-04-08 00:31:51 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Kikia Truzhari wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I don't know, Crow, I've never been asked to give up my beliefs by any Matari I've spoken with. No Matari has ever said or even hinted that I would be better off without my beliefs. No Matari has ever tried to push their beliefs on me without me asking about them.


We don't proselytize, we are perfectly content to let anyone walk whatever path they wish, provided it does not harm us. You have to jump though many, many, many hoops to prove you wish to be Matari. Not only do we not force it on anyone, we make it hard for even those who'd want to. One has to truly desire to become Matari, and prove it by action, to become one of us.


Thousands apologies, I must have been mistaken. I thought I was in a public discussion of a religious event with the main attraction being spiritual warfare in an attempt to destroy 'the Spirit of Amarr.'

Yes we Amarrians practice Reclaiming, yes it is a part of our religious doctrine. Yes we practice slavery, yes it is part of our culture. Yes these two are in our doctrine and culture because of our beliefs.

Tribes are seeking to change all three through force. I care not one whit if you preach to the Gallante or not Truzhari. That is not what I said of you. So thank ms. Fehrnah for trying to shield you from what I did say.



Yes, we are seeking to change you through force, just like you tried to change us. We don't act out of desire though, we act out of need, we act because not acting puts the rest of our people, the rest of humanity, at risk. You have forced our hand with your actions.
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#94 - 2012-04-08 01:08:23 UTC
Hey, have you guys noticed that most of the stuff you're saying could be said in about 10% as many words as you're presently using?

Just a thing I noticed! Hopefully this doesn't intrude on your tribal discussion! I'm QUITE DRUNK!
Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#95 - 2012-04-10 19:40:11 UTC
For those who wish to participate in the ceremony itself, it is going to be open to any adult, ethnic matari, who have received their voluval. If you're interested, message me, and we can discuss positions within the ceremony and practise dates leading up to the opening of the festival grounds.

I'm also looking for a few trustworthy matari who can manage security ((moderation)) at the festival grounds. For those interested, simply send me a mail with your request and a voucher from your clan head, affirming your availability, trustworthiness and reliability in such matters.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-04-11 06:49:39 UTC
I would like to extend my heart-felt best wishes to everyone involved in the realization of this festival, including those who would participate.

Kikia, I trust that you received my earlier correspondence?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#97 - 2012-04-11 16:34:50 UTC
I did yes Halete.
Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
#98 - 2012-04-22 22:55:01 UTC
This is a quick annoucement, the actual Vanquishing ritual will be held at 2000 onward on Sunday.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#99 - 2012-04-23 01:09:50 UTC
I look forward to the festival! This will be the biggest social event I've been to as a capsuleer, and coincides with some very importent life-happenings too.
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis
#100 - 2012-04-23 08:03:27 UTC
huh a festival, great, i ll be there. Can i bring some well prepared corpse of dead amarslaver-pilots as well? To ritually burn them? Also i would apreciate some video footage of the chicks around there in advance.