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New dev blog: Changes to War Mechanics

First post First post
Author
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1021 - 2012-05-13 04:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Naga Tokiba wrote:
Let me start by saying that I love the game of EVE. There are so many options and styles of play - posibilities are endless.

Being a hisec industrialist I've previously objected to odds not being even when getting decked - PvP is not my style of play, I dont like it, I dont want it.
I'm fitted for industry, NOT for PvP, and this is the whole core of the problem.

Me with my 5 industrial accounts cannot enjoy having a corp.
And with these new changes, it will be pure stupidity for me to create a corp.

It is a god idea to streamline the war decking system, and I'm all for new and improved stuff, but what I dont like is to be forced into a style of play I dont want and have no interrest in.

The previous 2 times I created my own small corp, I got decked and had to dismantle the corp again. I have no chance of wining, dont want to PVP, and just have to be a sitting duck - where is the fun in that?

I have previously suggested the idea of a "Small Corp Protection Act", allowing for small corps with a limited number of members to enjoy their style of play in our world of EVE, and choose NOT to participate in the war decking system if they dont want to (Checkable option in the corp settings).
What this number should be is not up to me to deside, but somewhere around 8-10 members sounds reasonable to me.

Of cause a "soft" carebear suggestion as this, is way out of line and basis for massive denigration, but it is still my oppinion.

As it stands now, I've choosen to cancel 3 of my 5 accounts Sad. This in my oppinion is NOT a good sollution for the world of EVE (all of us) either, but the style of play I've enjoyed for allmost 6 years now, unfortunately is not "allowed" any more.


In general I would like to say to CCP that all expansions, new content and especially possibilities are most welcome, and keeps EVE being the best game to be part of, just dont force people into a style of play they dont want.

I really hope You will consider some form of "Small Corp Protection Act" allowing players for themselves to deside how they want to be a part of EVE.

This post could most fitting me signed with:
5 -> 2


You can always quit if you don't like it. Nobody can force you to play the game you don't want to play. Get out and get some real exercise rather than sitting in front of your screen all day.

The problem with wardec of PVP vs industrialist is that industrialists take on much bigger risks when hauling. Basically by putting up a wardec you completely block out every possibility of hauling anything around while under attack risk. EVE is largely about hauling - you buy/mine/rat at one place, haul to another, build, haul back, sell etc. So hauling is completely ruled out due to asymmetric risk (you never know where you can be camped and by how many people, since an arbitrary number of players can join the aggressor corp at any time. Lowsec becomes safer than hisec actually becaues you can use JF with almost 100% safety. JF in lowsec is much safer than warping from gate to gate in hisec. Logistics convoys are out of question since its a waste of time compared to simple drop out of corp. You could be aggressed by a 1-man corp but that could instantly turn into a 100-man corp with sufficient coordination. CCP still hasn't said anything about preventing the aggressor corp from expansion). So by putting up a wardec you unconditoinally force haulers to drop out of corp, any fighting option is plain stupid since there is an option to drop out. Same with mining. So wardecs do nothing about haulers and miners since they are not affected by NPC corp tax. Only ratters and mission runners are affected by NPC corp tax, but those can hop into a new player corp. So wardec allowing combat vs pilots in player corps is a completely pointless exercise. On the other hand if permagriefing/individual wardec were allowed, many people would be very likely to quit playing also bad for CCP's business. Does CCP understand this? Yes it seems, since they are not allowing individual wardecs. What is this all about then? POS removal, ok. Restrict wardecs to POS aggression only. Also leave an option for other corp to allow pilots to fight but that should be consensual.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1022 - 2012-05-13 05:07:07 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
betoli wrote:
*headdesk*

If CCP didn't agree something was amiss, think that the game couldn't be improved, and wanted input from us lot, this thread wouldn't exist.

That's not what he's getting at. What he's getting at is people complaining about PvP in a PvP game. Most of those people also make the mistake of thinking that PvP in this game is only "combat" PvP, without looking deeper into how the game actually works.



Boring Dock / Undock games (hisec wardecs) don't actually count as PvP do they? :)

All they are ... are just extended denial of service attacks .... not fun for anyone ... accomplishing nothing ... an utter waste of time.

The entire wardec system should be scrapped.

Even CCP must think the same --- which is why they are making large corps immune.



Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1023 - 2012-05-13 05:44:57 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

So they can't hae a button to make the bad men go away when the bad men have a button to allow them to practically kill anyone?
Sounds a bit like a double standard.

Trying to kill people is a type of gameplay. Making yourself invulnerable to other peoples attempts to kill you by pushing a button is literally anti-gameplay.



Both styles are valid gameplay ... in a sandbox, you can't say either one is invalid ... so Joe's logic holds ... double standard.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1024 - 2012-05-13 05:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
Xorv wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

This also applies to reducing the rewards in high sec.

Remove level 4's, and players will quit, remove incursions and unless you replace them with lvl 5's, players will quit.


Good, those people should quit, EVE would be better off in the long term without them.



You like layoffs Xorv?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1025 - 2012-05-13 05:57:33 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

So they can't hae a button to make the bad men go away when the bad men have a button to allow them to practically kill anyone?
Sounds a bit like a double standard.

Trying to kill people is a type of gameplay. Making yourself invulnerable to other peoples attempts to kill you by pushing a button is literally anti-gameplay.



Both styles are valid gameplay ... in a sandbox, you can't say either one is invalid ... so Joe's logic holds ... double standard.


Don't forget to mention that while we in high sec don't get a button to be immune from wardecs, ccp has apparently giving the large alliances their own built in Dec shields just for having a lot of people.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1026 - 2012-05-13 06:05:28 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

This also applies to reducing the rewards in high sec.

Remove level 4's, and players will quit, remove incursions and unless you replace them with lvl 5's, players will quit.


Good, those people should quit, EVE would be better off in the long term without them.



You like layoffs Joe?


Love 'em. Expecially when the company lays off all the wrong people and causes the company to collapse, cause that's what will happen if they start taking more away from high sec and increasing high sec risks.

Those of us that have been playing for years in high sec will have no problem quiting if you remove lvl 4 missions and start increasing risks. We don't play to advance towards pvp and null sec. However, if people think Eve can survive without is carebears, then I'm more than willing to do an experimental split of the server to see what happens. Carebears on one side and high risks all pvp on the other side. Lets see how it works out.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1027 - 2012-05-13 06:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
Sizeof Void wrote:


So, the idea here is to get the defender corp to try to fight back, by providing them with a non-dockable war target - which can be destroyed and which the aggressors are forced to protect (or lose the war).

It doesn't matter where the aggressor chooses to put their POS, as long as it is required to be in high sec (which prevents you from putting it at the other end of the galaxy, behind a massive wall of null sec alliances). The aggressors will no longer be able to just wait for advantage in an NPC station, before going out to harass the defenders - now, they would also be forced to come out to defend/rep the POS, or to try to anchor a new one during the war.



Better yet, treat this like DUNE, where the Harkonnen were allowed (by CONCORD lol) to gank the Atreidies (sp?), but only if they maintained the flow of industrial materials back to the Empire ...

IOW, the agressors should be forced to anchor a POS, in the SAME system as the defender's POS, or fairly nearby, and at the same or higher system Security level.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1028 - 2012-05-13 06:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Takara Mora wrote:
Boring Dock / Undock games (hisec wardecs) don't actually count as PvP do they? :)

All they are ... are just extended denial of service attacks .... not fun for anyone ... accomplishing nothing ... an utter waste of time.

It's pointless arguing with someone who refuses to think outside their mental fortress of "I'm being griefed if someone attacks me". EVE is a PvP game and you should never be safe (<-this coming from a self-avowed carebear). If you haven't noticed, "terrorist" is a perfectly viable career in this game.

Takara Mora wrote:
The entire wardec system should be scrapped.

So if you're using a moon in high-sec that I want to put a POS at I shouldn't have any way to remove yours? Way to cater to veteran players.

Takara Mora wrote:
Even CCP must think the same --- which is why they are making large corps immune.

Cost scaling is a big issue, as nearly everyone in this thread with a head on their shoulders has pointed out.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2012-05-13 06:51:26 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
Boring Dock / Undock games (hisec wardecs) don't actually count as PvP do they? :)

All they are ... are just extended denial of service attacks .... not fun for anyone ... accomplishing nothing ... an utter waste of time.

It's pointless arguing with someone who refuses to think outside their mental fortress of "I'm being griefed if someone attacks me". EVE is a PvP game and you should never be safe (<-this coming from a self-avowed carebear). If you haven't noticed, "terrorist" is a perfectly viable career in this game.

Takara Mora wrote:
The entire wardec system should be scrapped.

So if you're using a moon in high-sec that I want to put a POS at I shouldn't have any way to remove yours? Way to cater to veteran players.

Takara Mora wrote:
Even CCP must think the same --- which is why they are making large corps immune.

Cost scaling is a big issue, as nearly everyone in this thread with a head on their shoulders has pointed out.



I'm actually fine with POS wars .... in fact, agressors should be required to anchor one as well before wardeccing ... in order to provide some level of risk for themselves.

It's funny to hear all the PVP'rs talk about "accepting risk", when in fact they are the ones living with low risk ... they're not spending weeks setting up POS's, building thinks, researching things, etc. .... put somehow they are 'Leet for being able to gank with a smaller skillset? Pretty funny ...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1030 - 2012-05-13 07:05:20 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:

Yup ... there we all go ... cancelling our EVE subscriptions at last b/c we don't like having the PvP playstyle forced on us.

You'd think CCP would realize it's much more profitable to support ALL playstyles ... but clearly they prefer PvP.


What is this "playstyle" ****? Sounds like you are talking about some other MMOs. EVE is a virtual universe, a sandbox, you don't choose some ridicuous "playstyles" or hardness levels at the login room.

There is only one way to succeed in EVE - you stand up for what you got, and put up a fight.

If you can't handle it yourself, make friends with people who can, or pay mercs to do it for you.

.

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1031 - 2012-05-13 07:10:25 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
I'm actually fine with POS wars .... in fact, agressors should be required to anchor one as well before wardeccing ... in order to provide some level of risk for themselves.

It's funny to hear all the PVP'rs talk about "accepting risk", when in fact they are the ones living with low risk ... they're not spending weeks setting up POS's, building thinks, researching things, etc. .... put somehow they are 'Leet for being able to gank with a smaller skillset? Pretty funny ...

Again, you refuse to think outside your little box. Not everyone wants to wardec industrialists nor do they do it to take down POSes (although this is perfectly legitimate). There's a corp out there that decs anyone trying to setup shop in their system; they want the place to themselves. I just recently executed a wardec in order to press-gang some guy into my friend's corp; the guy joined up with my friend and we "won" the war.

Players in EVE set their own goals and that's what makes it worth playing.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1032 - 2012-05-13 08:03:23 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

This also applies to reducing the rewards in high sec.

Remove level 4's, and players will quit, remove incursions and unless you replace them with lvl 5's, players will quit.


Good, those people should quit, EVE would be better off in the long term without them.



You like layoffs Joe?


Love 'em. Expecially when the company lays off all the wrong people and causes the company to collapse, cause that's what will happen if they start taking more away from high sec and increasing high sec risks.

Those of us that have been playing for years in high sec will have no problem quiting if you remove lvl 4 missions and start increasing risks. We don't play to advance towards pvp and null sec.
(...)


Amen to that. They want to save their company by messing with those who pay 72% of the bill... which is bold but stupid.

It's like when Coca Cola decided that their customers didn't like the taste of Coca Cola and changed it to compete better with Pepsi Cola, with funny consequences:

Wikipedia article on New Coke

The "New Coke" story is so old and has been told so many times that it has become a industry cliche for commercial flops, but even now, as much in Reykjavik as in Atlanta, many corporate decission makers still think that when 72% of your customers buy "Hisec" this means that they actually like "Nullsec" better so the more your Hisec becomes like Nullsec the happier they will be... Lol
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#1033 - 2012-05-13 09:48:07 UTC
I like the way so many are ignoring the ability to hire mercenaries to do the fighting for you if PvP isn't your thing.

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
....those who pay 72% of the bill.

I guess you're referencing population distribution in Eve. I'm fairly sure most people did what I did, created a character which is my main then filled the 2 other slots with characters I barely use or don't use it all. Unsurprisingly these characters are still in the high security station they were born in. If everyone did that, and its reasonable to assume its a good rule of thumb, then that puts 66.6% of all characters in high security space, even if the main is flying in 0.0. It's not very clever to try and manipulate statistics to back your argument in such an obvious fashion as its easily seen and draws attention to how bad the basis of your argument actually is if you need to resort to such blurring of the truth.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1034 - 2012-05-13 11:05:50 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
I like the way so many are ignoring the ability to hire mercenaries to do the fighting for you if PvP isn't your thing.

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
....those who pay 72% of the bill.

I guess you're referencing population distribution in Eve. I'm fairly sure most people did what I did, created a character which is my main then filled the 2 other slots with characters I barely use or don't use it all. Unsurprisingly these characters are still in the high security station they were born in.


I'm sure no one is that stupid when it comes to generating the stats.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1035 - 2012-05-13 11:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Captain Thunk wrote:
I like the way so many are ignoring the ability to hire mercenaries to do the fighting for you if PvP isn't your thing.


Why hire mercenaries? It's cheaper to let the attacker grow bored, or plain dismantle the corporation. Specially in EVE, where your mercenaries could easily be your attacker's alts.

Quote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
....those who pay 72% of the bill.

I guess you're referencing population distribution in Eve. I'm fairly sure most people did what I did, created a character which is my main then filled the 2 other slots with characters I barely use or don't use it all. Unsurprisingly these characters are still in the high security station they were born in. If everyone did that, and its reasonable to assume its a good rule of thumb, then that puts 66.6% of all characters in high security space, even if the main is flying in 0.0. It's not very clever to try and manipulate statistics to back your argument in such an obvious fashion as its easily seen and draws attention to how bad the basis of your argument actually is if you need to resort to such blurring of the truth.


Breath deep... inhale... exhale... inhale... exhale... concentrate... now read:

72% of the characters logged in were located in High Security Space.

Now, pick your poison:

- People log in their hisec characters Just For Fun (TM)
- Whoever logs in to hisec (3/4 of players) does so for business, so it's relevant that this 72% of hisec characters can do whatever business they do so their account holders keep paying 72% of all active accounts

Statistics: they're bitches, but don't just let anyone shag them.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1036 - 2012-05-13 11:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Amen to that. They want to save their company by messing with those who pay 72% of the bill... which is bold but stupid.


The mantra of "This is a PVP game therefore everyone should face (combat) PVP" isn't really helpful either to players or CCPs revenues. Eve is a sandbox, it should support as wide a range of play-styles as possible in order to get as many people subscribing as possible, even *gasp* completely safe carebear styles.

There are already play styles that are risk free - I can sit in a station and day trade for example. Also many people who are 0.0 based still retain an alt in the relative safety of HS for their ISK generation (clearly a game breaking mechanic).

The ONLY requirement on CCP should be to ensure a balance between risk and reward. If CCP wanted to make regions completely safe this wouldn't break the game, so long as there were no big ISK faucets there. I don't think there is a tweak to fees that makes wardecs both fair and protecting all playstyles.

A better approach should be "if I want to get out of this war, I have to give something up". What that something is and what the fee is is a matter of debate - so long as it nerfs income., in a way thats comparable with the likely outcomes of the war following is natural course.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1037 - 2012-05-13 14:48:44 UTC
betoli wrote:
The mantra of "This is a PVP game therefore everyone should face (combat) PVP" isn't really helpful either to players or CCPs revenues. Eve is a sandbox, it should support as wide a range of play-styles as possible in order to get as many people subscribing as possible, even *gasp* completely safe carebear styles.

There are already play styles that are risk free - I can sit in a station and day trade for example. Also many people who are 0.0 based still retain an alt in the relative safety of HS for their ISK generation (clearly a game breaking mechanic).

Most people who say things like "EVE is a PvP game" understand that "Player versus Player" can refer to a host of competitive activities in which players pit themselves against other players, such as station-trading (which, BTW, is not risk-free because you can lose ISK to other players doing it). And while I am no expert on the subject, I have read 0.0 people saying that the reason they use high-sec alts to make ISK is because ISK generation in high-sec is so brokenly lucrative.

betoli wrote:
The ONLY requirement on CCP should be to ensure a balance between risk and reward. If CCP wanted to make regions completely safe this wouldn't break the game, so long as there were no big ISK faucets there.

If there is no risk, you should get no reward.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#1038 - 2012-05-13 15:12:33 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

72% of the characters logged in were located in High Security Space.

Now, pick your poison:

- People log in their hisec characters Just For Fun (TM)
- Whoever logs in to hisec (3/4 of players) does so for business, so it's relevant that this 72% of hisec characters can do whatever business they do so their account holders keep paying 72% of all active accounts

Statistics: they're bitches, but don't just let anyone shag them.


Exactly my point, all alliances use Jita and are constantly ferrying goods to and from Empire, with the current wardec mechanics and those proposed it's impossible to cut off supply lines. This has prevented Alliances from dying when their time is up leading to their ever presence in 0.0 and the stagnation of nullsec warfare.

What we need is a working wardec mechanic, so these can be attacked regardless of where they are and without system protection.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1039 - 2012-05-13 16:16:01 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
I'm actually fine with POS wars .... in fact, agressors should be required to anchor one as well before wardeccing ... in order to provide some level of risk for themselves.

It's funny to hear all the PVP'rs talk about "accepting risk", when in fact they are the ones living with low risk ... they're not spending weeks setting up POS's, building thinks, researching things, etc. .... put somehow they are 'Leet for being able to gank with a smaller skillset? Pretty funny ...

Again, you refuse to think outside your little box. Not everyone wants to wardec industrialists nor do they do it to take down POSes (although this is perfectly legitimate). There's a corp out there that decs anyone trying to setup shop in their system; they want the place to themselves. I just recently executed a wardec in order to press-gang some guy into my friend's corp; the guy joined up with my friend and we "won" the war.

Players in EVE set their own goals and that's what makes it worth playing.


Good point Karl ... there is truth in that - I'm surprised to hear that the dec mechanics actually produced a scrap of valuable game play for anyone tho, truly.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1040 - 2012-05-13 16:27:33 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
betoli wrote:
The mantra of "This is a PVP game therefore everyone should face (combat) PVP" isn't really helpful either to players or CCPs revenues. Eve is a sandbox, it should support as wide a range of play-styles as possible in order to get as many people subscribing as possible, even *gasp* completely safe carebear styles.

There are already play styles that are risk free - I can sit in a station and day trade for example. Also many people who are 0.0 based still retain an alt in the relative safety of HS for their ISK generation (clearly a game breaking mechanic).

Most people who say things like "EVE is a PvP game" understand that "Player versus Player" can refer to a host of competitive activities in which players pit themselves against other players, such as station-trading (which, BTW, is not risk-free because you can lose ISK to other players doing it). And while I am no expert on the subject, I have read 0.0 people saying that the reason they use high-sec alts to make ISK is because ISK generation in high-sec is so brokenly lucrative.

betoli wrote:
The ONLY requirement on CCP should be to ensure a balance between risk and reward. If CCP wanted to make regions completely safe this wouldn't break the game, so long as there were no big ISK faucets there.

If there is no risk, you should get no reward.


Karl is right ... those station traders and industrialists risk more isk than most of the PVP'ers ever will. Any small group of noobs who are bored on a weekend can set their POS operations back by months or years. So who is taking more risk again? --> this isn't about risk or lack thereof.

All we're really talking about is a preference .... not everyone wants to play football ... some like chess. The question is, can we find a set of wardec mechanics that might actually work for both?