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New dev blog: Changes to War Mechanics

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2012-03-29 19:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Evil Incarn8 wrote:
CCP you have totally missed the point.

The problem with wars is not the shedding/shielding, that is the workaround to the problem.

The problem is that the wardec system as it is now is a "pay to grief button"

The reason it's a "pay to grief button" is because the griefers keep their PVE assets/alts in decshielded corps or in NPC corps - making conflicts safe for the aggressor.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#202 - 2012-03-29 19:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Karim alRashid
I heard once that WoW had fishing. There you go. Idea

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2012-03-29 19:53:35 UTC
Danny Centauri wrote:
Inferno - Fueled by the tears of carebears.

Have to admit the amount of ********™ in this thread is quite impressive on the side of the carebears. Apparently the phrase adapt or die doesn't apply if it makes you sad Ugh.

If you can't handle a war, leave the corporation. NPC corporations can not be war dec'd and are full of friendly people. If that isn't enough then start to form a corporation within said NPC corporation (after all for most people corp is just a chat channel which you can create in game anyway). This should cover the vast majority of cases of casual players there are bound to be loads of inventive ways of surviving that will come up which is how it should be.

If you are a more serious PvE or indy corporation then awesome you have ISK right, if not then you are really bad at EVE or actually casual players. Hire mercs! Its quite simple and the new system will increase competition in the merc industry and drive down prices as people try to get all the new contracts.

Honestly EVE is meant to be difficult it doesnt matter whether you are in highsec or in 0.0 there should always remain risk, and yes I do a lot of indy stuff yet I still believe this is the right way forward. Without war in EVE the market will remain stagnant these mechanics increase the velocity of money which is good for industry players meaning faster turn over of products.

Mercs get contract --> Spend on ships --> You sell ships --> You profit.

EVE is a life cycle some times you end up on the **** end of it... deal with it.


Warning: Carebear tear may be flamable.


So, Null Bear, will you continue hiding in your Mega Corp, immune from War Decs?

Yes?

That's what I thought.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-03-29 20:02:53 UTC
So the message I get from this is stay in NPC or get in as large a groups as possible?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#205 - 2012-03-29 20:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
bornaa wrote:
@ CCP

Scrap this ****** changes and back to drawing board!!!

This is worse then Incarna that you gave us.
At least Incarna did not screw up the game for many many people.


You guys are not here to change the game only to benefit big guys!!!!!
Think a little about small people, industry people, research people, miners all other people who enjoy the game when someone don't ruin it for them.
Just look how much industry corps/alliances were killed by griefing, this will destroy them completely in the future.
You are encouraging griefing!!!!!
You cant make people to change their game stile and do something they don't like, they will quit.

Lets talk about miners now:
Look how much you ****** up miners with ganking boosts.
When you add up war griefing its almost dead.
With this changes you will hammer the last nail into mining coffin.
-> this is only the example, and other professions are screwed by this like that.


Yay, I had some anonymous dudes wardec my one-man corp, presumedly to get a cheap shot on my mission runner ships (as if i was to endanger a ship worth 3 months of my income...). I just resigned as CEO, transfered the corp to this alt and went NPC for a week. Then the war ended as it was non-mutual and I went back to business with only a small 10% dent in my weekly income.

And now some CCP smartass thinks everyone who ever did like me just spoiled the fun to poor lil' griefin' modafakers and it's about time to make things more "fair" to PvP carebears... great. Roll
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2012-03-29 20:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Danny Centauri wrote:
Inferno - Fueled by the tears of carebears.

Have to admit the amount of ********™ in this thread is quite impressive on the side of the carebears. Apparently the phrase adapt or die doesn't apply if it makes you sad Ugh.
[/i]


So, Null Bear, will you continue hiding in your Mega Corp, immune from War Decs?

Yes?

That's what I thought.

lmao why would nullsec players care about wardecs?
I only care about it from a macroeconomic perspective, but on a given day I have 3-4 wardecs on me every day of the year and I couldn't care less because I never leave null on this account and any supplies I need are handled with an undeccable NPC corp alt in a bestower or a alt logistics corp. Wardecs are irrelevent in New Eden except for newbies who don't know any better and I think that should be fixed.
hth
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#207 - 2012-03-29 20:14:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Q: How do you calculate value of blueprints?
A: We don't, they are the exception to what value we could track. We looked into adding this, but it turned out to be too complicated.


The simple way to determine BPO cost is - NPC sell value. And research levels simply don't count. AFAIK, all T1 BPOs out there have a NPC sell value. Alternately, if you want to include ME/PE levels into the value, then calculate the cost to run a large POS for 30 days, assume 60 slots in use, which gives you a per-hour number to apply to the ME/PE number. It will be on the low side (because nobody can keep 60 ME/PE slots running non-stop). But it will be in the ballpark of what the BPO is worth.

For T2 BPOs - that is a lot trickier. They almost never change hands, or only via contracts. Those, you should just give them values by category. Regular module T2 BPOs would be worth X, T2 ammo BPOs worth Y, etc. It should be possible to guess at this.

BPCs - should be valued at the cost of the POS fuel needed to create the BPC (so large tower POS fuel cost per 30 days, divided by 60 slots, times how long it takes to create the BPC). It will be "close enough".

And now that there are fuel blocks, you can just take the average cost of fuel blocks of the four types as your cost-basis to figure out a per-30day cost.
darius mclever
#208 - 2012-03-29 20:15:22 UTC
the price by corp size thing is stupid ... it will actually guard large entities while making the small corps the preferred target.
Severian Carnifex
#209 - 2012-03-29 20:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Severian Carnifex
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So the message I get from this is stay in NPC or get in as large a groups as possible?



The message I get is quit EVE

I was watching that FanFest war presentation and the question on the end
All people that asked some question were concerned about the changes and DEV gave same answer over and over again
That I see all over again here. Ugh

It seems to me that CCP don't listen players at all and trying to quick fix all problems and not ever trying re-make all broken parts.

Please CCP don't ruin the game for many many many EVE players.
Don't **** up little man (again).
Don't try to force players to change their gameplay because they don't want to and many wont and will quit.
CCP has already killed too many game stiles in EVE and pushed too many players away.
gfldex
#210 - 2012-03-29 20:16:44 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Yay, I had some anonymous dudes wardec my one-man corp, presumedly to get a cheap shot on my mission runner ships (as if i was to endanger a ship worth 3 months of my income...). I just resigned as CEO, transfered the corp to this alt and went NPC for a week. Then the war ended as it was non-mutual and I went back to business with only a small 10% dent in my weekly income.

And now some CCP smartass thinks everyone who ever did like me just spoiled the fun to poor lil' griefin' modafakers and it's about time to make things more "fair" to PvP carebears... great. Roll


And what's going to stop you do the same with the new wardec system?

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2012-03-29 20:24:45 UTC
One good dev blog after another. Keep up the great work. Loving the new CCP. Big smile
Dirk Space
Solar Dragons
#212 - 2012-03-29 20:25:46 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Dirk Space wrote:


Quote:

Just because some people want to bully the little guy, the carebear, someone who just wants to log on and make stuff, how does that make the war dec system justifiable?


Nobody in this thread has given (in fact I doubt nobody can give) a valid reason as to why the war dec system sxists, except to grief people.


Wardecs where introduced as a compromise of another compromise. The latter is the existence of CONCORD. In the very beginning there was no CONCORD nor station guns.

As undocking could take you longer then 30 sec to load the scene (the servers nowadays are brilliant compared to what we used to have) and as a result cunning individuals farmed noobs, actions had to be taken. Instead of solving the problem to get out of a station without getting blown to smithereens CCP decided adding some NPCs that stop such attacks would be wise. It was for sure easier (read: faster) to implement.

Since EVE was (was!) centered around non-consentional PvP the wardec system was added to the game to allow corps in highsec to fight over resources. Yes, you are supposed to fight for what you own. That may even mean you have to work together with capable players.

That's why wardecs are there. The comfort zone that highsec became with the privateer-nerf was never meant to be there in the first place. Now that will be fixed.

And demanding the game to be easy, no matter for that char age, is whining. Esp. if there are very viable options for your to opt-out of combat against players.

You seam to have problems to understand what grief play really is: here a incomplete list. Driving your little corp out of business (read: make your members join proper corps instead) is not griefplay by any means.

You are solo? NPC corps are your salvation. If that means you can't have that ISK printing machine that is your highsec research POS, we will be fine with that. More money for those who can actually defend their business. (Or have friends that can.)


Thank you for giving the answer I was waiting for.

War decs were implemented for a reason. That reason no longer exists. War decs are now just a tool to grief and bully people that are not able to field sufficient numbers, strategies or tactics to deter such behaviour. They are an outdated mechanic that holds no place, except for those intent on causing hurt and suffering on others.

Remove war decs completely, people will adapt.
Mentat Cthulhu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2012-03-29 20:27:01 UTC
I think the changes are fine except the wardec costs should be capped or even have bands like 0-10 members, 10-25 members 25-50members 50-100members 100-250members 250-500members 500-1000members, 1000+ members...don't make having 8k members a way to optout of highsec wars unless someone is willing to pay many billions per week to enage you....
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#214 - 2012-03-29 20:28:02 UTC
Bruce Blacky wrote:
What about war decs by corps with one character 40 jumps away.

Then when they sppot you in space, multiple characxters (lets say 4) join that war party (the agressor), kill the defender and leave the corp again.
Leaving the defender with no means to kill his (real) agressor?

Will you adress that?

(in case you need details see petition i posted about that incident)

Cheers
Bruce


That has to be fixed with timers.

1) A player who wants to leave a defender/aggressor corp has to wait until downtime.

2) Joining a corp that is in an active wardec (either side) does not take effect until downtime.

3) All corp changes by a player incur a 18 hour timer before you can change again.

For corporations joining/leaving alliances, it should only take effect at downtime and should have a 50 hour cooldown.

So you can still corp/alliance hop, but you can't do it in the middle of the day and you can't hop like a bunny rabbit multiple times per day.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#215 - 2012-03-29 20:28:37 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Yay, I had some anonymous dudes wardec my one-man corp, presumedly to get a cheap shot on my mission runner ships (as if i was to endanger a ship worth 3 months of my income...). I just resigned as CEO, transfered the corp to this alt and went NPC for a week. Then the war ended as it was non-mutual and I went back to business with only a small 10% dent in my weekly income.

And now some CCP smartass thinks everyone who ever did like me just spoiled the fun to poor lil' griefin' modafakers and it's about time to make things more "fair" to PvP carebears... great. Roll


And what's going to stop you do the same with the new wardec system?


The war won't stop authomatically if non-mutual, only will stop if the agressor stops paying for it. Which opens a door for cheaply kicking people out of game for "NOT PLAYING MY WAY".

That's outrageously stupid and unnecesary. If a player chooses to stay out of PvP, he must not be forced to do so, and certainly not in a way that can effectively make playing impossible to him for a ludicrous low price.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#216 - 2012-03-29 20:29:36 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
gfldex wrote:
Dirk Space wrote:


Quote:

Just because some people want to bully the little guy, the carebear, someone who just wants to log on and make stuff, how does that make the war dec system justifiable?


Nobody in this thread has given (in fact I doubt nobody can give) a valid reason as to why the war dec system sxists, except to grief people.


Wardecs where introduced as a compromise of another compromise. The latter is the existence of CONCORD. In the very beginning there was no CONCORD nor station guns.

As undocking could take you longer then 30 sec to load the scene (the servers nowadays are brilliant compared to what we used to have) and as a result cunning individuals farmed noobs, actions had to be taken. Instead of solving the problem to get out of a station without getting blown to smithereens CCP decided adding some NPCs that stop such attacks would be wise. It was for sure easier (read: faster) to implement.

Since EVE was (was!) centered around non-consentional PvP the wardec system was added to the game to allow corps in highsec to fight over resources. Yes, you are supposed to fight for what you own. That may even mean you have to work together with capable players.

That's why wardecs are there. The comfort zone that highsec became with the privateer-nerf was never meant to be there in the first place. Now that will be fixed.

And demanding the game to be easy, no matter for that char age, is whining. Esp. if there are very viable options for your to opt-out of combat against players.

You seam to have problems to understand what grief play really is: here a incomplete list. Driving your little corp out of business (read: make your members join proper corps instead) is not griefplay by any means.

You are solo? NPC corps are your salvation. If that means you can't have that ISK printing machine that is your highsec research POS, we will be fine with that. More money for those who can actually defend their business. (Or have friends that can.)


Thank you for giving the answer I was waiting for.

War decs were implemented for a reason. That reason no longer exists. War decs are now just a tool to grief and bully people that are not able to field sufficient numbers, strategies or tactics to deter such behaviour. They are an outdated mechanic that holds no place, except for those intent on causing hurt and suffering on others.

Remove war decs completely, people will adapt.


That's another take...
Dirk Space
Solar Dragons
#217 - 2012-03-29 20:31:04 UTC
I do apologise for me carping on about this but I am struggling to comprehend why we are arguing about the subleties surrounding the mechanics of war decs when it is obvious that the whole system needs removing. After a review and a suitable replacement is designed, then it should be implemented.

It doesn't matter how much we talk about changing the costs, or large corp deccing a small corp ratios, it is still a broken mechanic.
gfldex
#218 - 2012-03-29 20:31:28 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
War decs were implemented for a reason. That reason no longer exists.


Last time I check CONCORD was still there.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#219 - 2012-03-29 20:35:25 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
I do apologise for me carping on about this but I am struggling to comprehend why we are arguing about the subleties surrounding the mechanics of war decs when it is obvious that the whole system needs removing. After a review and a suitable replacement is designed, then it should be implemented.

It doesn't matter how much we talk about changing the costs, or large corp deccing a small corp ratios, it is still a broken mechanic.



I agree. We should get rid of wardecs and concorde/gate guns as well. Space used to be policed by the people and it should be that way again.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
KanashiiKami
#220 - 2012-03-29 20:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
*edit : k ima rewrite in new posting ... later*

WUT ???