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Crime & Punishment

 
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The new mining bot scourge
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Raiz Nhell
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-03-30 11:17:10 UTC
I enjoy ice mining... Mostly cause I'm doing it at work... On the companies internet...
Bots **** me off...

Hook in... I'll take the hit if you accidentally pop me... Convo me first with a catchphrase and I'll respond.... If I don't, my fault for being afk, shoot me down...

Good way to pick a bot.... And believe me, a Catalyst shows up in belt I want to chat...



There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Myrianna Stormcrow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-30 13:04:45 UTC
I will throw my .02 out here as well.

I run 3 or 4 accounts (depending on situation) where 1 is my main and is in Nullsec fighting for your freedom and wage war on Internet Spaceship Nazies.

The other 2 are usually in Empire 1 is the producer / miner (produces most ships my main loses hilariously) and the other my Hauler. These 2 usually sit in belts. It completely messes with me that there are so many botters out there. It does not make me angry or anything it just makes me sad. I usually mine while I am in a fleet fight in 0.0 up North - it relaxes and gives me moar chills when we shoot structures or other meaningless stuff.

From time to time I see the usual guy warp in (who usually thinks he is badass pirate) who then bumps me and tries to move the Hulk away from the ORCA or vise versa, thinking I would agress first? I ask these people if they enjoy themselves, and they usually never reply (cause you know they are badass pirates and I should be scared.) There is the rare occasion when I am forced to clone-jump my Fighting PvP Toon down to Highsec because some pubbies just wont stop. My main already having a -4 standing, I always have a fighting ship ready inside the Orca, which means - warp main to Orca -> grab ship -> Blap pubbie -> get blapped by Navy / Concord and rinse repeat = fun times.

So I guess what I am trying to say to those that try and be all "pr0 PvP elitez" - Check before you mess with someone, because that person may actually not be a bot and be armed to his her teeth and have a char that does not really give a damn about sec status (well because they dont live in Highsec for the past 5 years). And for all pr0 pretenderz - go live in Curse like I have done for over 2 years (without a frackton of buddies) and learn what proper pvp means. (G0d hates Station Games

All in all, I love you guys for making the effort of blaping bots in Highsec. I just have hopes that at some stage CCP will walk in and properly detect these things (we've seen a good start at fanfest). And I usually only blap stuff in Highsec, when A the Alliance calls for it or B its Hulkageddon [:8)

p.s. Free Mittens
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#23 - 2012-03-30 16:22:48 UTC
I agree with both the OP and Colleo. In many instances miners tend to behave like bots, but that's because the mining mechanic is boring and needs to be changed to mitigate botting. On the other hand, the OP's research is highly indicative of a bot infestation that needs to be dealt with. Right now, I have plans to dive more into suicide ganking. I said this before many times and for some reason I kept on procrastinating, but after reading the list of characters that the OP mentioned and after reading about the amount of homework he did on the matter, I think it's time for me to stop procrastinating and start pro-gank-stinating with a little-known alt I had stored for occasions like this. Time to fire up the Amarrian Coercers. Does anyone have any recommended gank fits for that?

Adapt or Die
Liiza Valora
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-30 18:05:33 UTC
CCP if they are smart won't do a thing about botters. CCP recently lost 20% of its subscription base over incarna. After that lose of revenue they axed a group of their employees. Since everything in the world today revolves around the almighty dollar, CCP won't remove botters because it would further ruin their bottom line. If you have been reporting botters for 4 months and those botters are still in the game i'd say that CCP knows full well what is going on. Not only does CCP want botters in the game but they are trying to make as much money as they can, example: all of the plex offers that CCP has been advertising the last 6 months, it's really come on hot and heavy lately. Don't expect CCP to do anything that effects the amount of money they make not even if a large majority of player activity in their game is driven by bots.

Its plainly obvious to me that eve-online and ccp are all about the money and the integrity of the game is secondary.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#25 - 2012-03-30 18:16:15 UTC
Liiza Valora wrote:
CCP if they are smart won't do a thing about botters. CCP recently lost 20% of its subscription base over incarna. After that lose of revenue they axed a group of their employees. Since everything in the world today revolves around the almighty dollar, CCP won't remove botters because it would further ruin their bottom line. If you have been reporting botters for 4 months and those botters are still in the game i'd say that CCP knows full well what is going on. Not only does CCP want botters in the game but they are trying to make as much money as they can, example: all of the plex offers that CCP has been advertising the last 6 months, it's really come on hot and heavy lately. Don't expect CCP to do anything that effects the amount of money they make not even if a large majority of player activity in their game is driven by bots.

Its plainly obvious to me that eve-online and ccp are all about the money and the integrity of the game is secondary.


Regardless of whether or not I agree with you on some things, in this case I disagree with your pessimistic view on the future of Eve, CCP is still trying the best they can to deal with bots. The trick is to try to reform the bot users into no longer being bot users. But that is a problem neither you nor me know how to fix at the moment.

And even if CCP is working hard on the matter to combat the bots, it is still up to us, the capsuleers of New Eden, to rise up and destroy those bots. I want them all to burn and explode like a well-scripted Michael Bay film even at the expense of sec status and ISK.

Adapt or Die
Subdolus Venator
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-03-30 18:41:01 UTC
Msgerbs wrote:
You must have a damn big paycheck then...

A pretty decent one, yeah. But not that huge. The trick lies in knowing where to buy your gear.

EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Prince Kobol
#27 - 2012-03-30 18:48:44 UTC
Liiza Valora wrote:
CCP if they are smart won't do a thing about botters. CCP recently lost 20% of its subscription base over incarna. After that lose of revenue they axed a group of their employees. Since everything in the world today revolves around the almighty dollar, CCP won't remove botters because it would further ruin their bottom line. If you have been reporting botters for 4 months and those botters are still in the game i'd say that CCP knows full well what is going on. Not only does CCP want botters in the game but they are trying to make as much money as they can, example: all of the plex offers that CCP has been advertising the last 6 months, it's really come on hot and heavy lately. Don't expect CCP to do anything that effects the amount of money they make not even if a large majority of player activity in their game is driven by bots.

Its plainly obvious to me that eve-online and ccp are all about the money and the integrity of the game is secondary.


This is completely incorrect.

CCP lose vasts amount of money from botters.

You will find most organised mass botters will be part of a large RMT Ring.

That means they are providing resources for the RMT merchants to players who are purchasing isk via there sites.

So with when each player purchases isk from an RMT site that is lost income for CCP.

The only way to stop the majority of people from purchasing isk via RMT Merchants is to decrease the price of plex so it decreases the gap when comparing Plex v RMT Isk, or make botting much harder so the RMT sites have to increase the cost isk.
Subdolus Venator
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-03-30 19:01:55 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

This is completely incorrect.

CCP lose vasts amount of money from botters.

You will find most organised mass botters will be part of a large RMT Ring.

That means they are providing resources for the RMT merchants to players who are purchasing isk via there sites.

So with when each player purchases isk from an RMT site that is lost income for CCP.

The only way to stop the majority of people from purchasing isk via RMT Merchants is to decrease the price of plex so it decreases the gap when comparing Plex v RMT Isk, or make botting much harder so the RMT sites have to increase the cost isk.
This is an interesting assertion.

Have you evidence?

EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#29 - 2012-03-30 22:54:48 UTC
Subdolus Venator wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

This is completely incorrect.

CCP lose vasts amount of money from botters.

You will find most organised mass botters will be part of a large RMT Ring.

That means they are providing resources for the RMT merchants to players who are purchasing isk via there sites.

So with when each player purchases isk from an RMT site that is lost income for CCP.

The only way to stop the majority of people from purchasing isk via RMT Merchants is to decrease the price of plex so it decreases the gap when comparing Plex v RMT Isk, or make botting much harder so the RMT sites have to increase the cost isk.
This is an interesting assertion.

Have you evidence?


Have you any evidence on your interesting assertion that banning bots is not within CCP's best interest?

Adapt or Die
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-03-30 23:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Jita Bloodtear wrote:

1.) The bots have set bookmarks in the ice belts, and they always warp out to the same position. Once they land they'll approach their bookmark and do mining. These bookmarks are always spread out to prevent smartbomb attacks

2.) The bots react to certain stimuli which seems to vary depending on some unknown condition. They will often instantly go to warp if you lock them, they'll go to warp is a pirate lands on grid with them, and they'll go to warp if piracy happens in the belt

3.) A bot who's ship has just been killed will usually warp out instantly, often by a disconnect. A bot who doesn't have a ship will sit in station, and undock every 70 seconds, see he's in a pod, and then redock after 15 seconds. This is in contrast to the last generation of bot software that would have their pods warp to their BMs in the belt and pretend to be mining.

4.) An undocking bot will redock asap if a low sec status character is on the undock point (see rule 2)

5.) The bot program has the ability to blacklist certain characters, and to always dock up when they're in local. Their behavior indicates they may even have a shared database that they all access for this information - or one person controls 50+ bots

6.) The bots seem to come in "generations" of when the characters were created in groups. Often varying by a day or so. These generations will very often have each bot in their own player corp named after that bot. These player corps are often stuffed up to 5 players using alts from the other 2 character slots from each mining account

7.) The bots typically have one of the two programmed mackinaw setups (for caldari systems)
http://gents.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12883041 (this one is very popular)
http://gents.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12882584 (this is the secondary setup)

8.) The bots will relocate to another ice system if camped into a station (rule 4 and 5)

9.) The bots will typically not have implants (due to constant pod turnover rate), but prefer to fit +1% ice implants if possible

10.) The bots quite often share the same naming convention for their ships (which is unlikely to be the bot program, but the botter's choice) where the ships are named after the pilot, but there are 3 spaces preceeding the name (i.e. "___Jita Bloodtear's Mackinaw" where underscores are spaces)
.


I have to question some of your "rules". Looking at them from the stand point of a non-botter, most of the active preliminary rules to id bots would also apply to human ice miners... the rules that don't, the shipless dock un-dock are only applicable for "players" you've already ganked, would mean you are advocating a - kill any miner to find out if they are bots policy - this is a sort of play on the Nancy Pelosi, "we have to pass the bill to find out whats in it" plan right?

The stimuli that bots "react" to are the same stimuli that a non-botted player would react to. For instance, if you have killed the player before, he sees you in local, he docks up; this is normal - as is docking if a low sec status player enters a system.. Any player watching local looks for this.
Someone attacks a player on the grid he's on, he docks; also normal.
Has no implants after being killed repeatedly; how could that not be normal... though in truth I would probably relocate after the second attack - and not be around to kill and find no implant on.
Bookmarks? What miner non-botter does not use them.. this is just practical especially when chugging out into the belts takes so long.. part of ice mining is also positioning yourself away from the jump in point.. so bookmarking is not a good identifier.
Miners in the same system often share information... making your one miner controling 50 bot claim sort of flimsy.. I will admit that some naming convensions for characters and corps are a dead give away..usually they are used in mission botting however.


I'm not claiming none of your 300 kills are bots... but I'm seriously doubting all of them are.

Zelous bot hunters often make these mistakes.. so I'm not singling you out - just be aware that not all your characterizations apply logically only to botters.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#31 - 2012-03-30 23:49:30 UTC
You're quite right. Many Bothans did die to bring us this information. But no one liked the Bothans anyways...

We never set out to gank bots, we set out to gank mackinaws. Many many innocent players died and will continue to die during our campaign. It is inevitable. Often we prefer to target bots above players, if there's enough targets around. If no bots are around, players are next on the menu.
Aldeskwatso
Primus Societas
Crimson Interstellar Alliance
#32 - 2012-03-30 23:53:26 UTC
Subdolus Venator wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

This is completely incorrect.

CCP lose vasts amount of money from botters.

You will find most organised mass botters will be part of a large RMT Ring.

That means they are providing resources for the RMT merchants to players who are purchasing isk via there sites.

So with when each player purchases isk from an RMT site that is lost income for CCP.

The only way to stop the majority of people from purchasing isk via RMT Merchants is to decrease the price of plex so it decreases the gap when comparing Plex v RMT Isk, or make botting much harder so the RMT sites have to increase the cost isk.
This is an interesting assertion.

Have you evidence?

I can't imagine someone supporting downright cheating in a multiplayer game. If CCP wanted the automation bot programms provide then I think they would have built the option into the game by now. Untill they do I regard them as worthless cheaters who deserve every tear dropping suicide gank they get. Plus I can remember something in the EULA about using certain 3rd Party Programms that enable certain functionality not supported by the game... Not plowing through there now tho?

Botters suck

The biggest obstacle you'll encounter doing anything is yourself.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#33 - 2012-03-31 05:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Haphorn
Barbara, if you took the time to read the other posts after the initial one from the OP, you would see that he has done his homework as best he could including the tested method of timing the dock and undock process of each target. I have hunted bots before and I have to say that I like to learn things everyday if it would in effectively tracking and gank Bot shops. After all, it's hard as hell to track them as you are never 100% sure the target is a Bot unless you gank them. I'm going to have to trust the OP

Adapt or Die
Prince Kobol
#34 - 2012-03-31 07:13:08 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Subdolus Venator wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

This is completely incorrect.

CCP lose vasts amount of money from botters.

You will find most organised mass botters will be part of a large RMT Ring.

That means they are providing resources for the RMT merchants to players who are purchasing isk via there sites.

So with when each player purchases isk from an RMT site that is lost income for CCP.

The only way to stop the majority of people from purchasing isk via RMT Merchants is to decrease the price of plex so it decreases the gap when comparing Plex v RMT Isk, or make botting much harder so the RMT sites have to increase the cost isk.
This is an interesting assertion.

Have you evidence?


Have you any evidence on your interesting assertion that banning bots is not within CCP's best interest?


All I have is a very good understanding how RMT Merchants work and Common Sense.

If you believe that the small amount of revenue those accounts generate compared to the vast amount of revenue CCP lose by players purchasing Isk via RMT Merchants and not via Authorised Plex dealers then what can I say.
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#35 - 2012-04-02 15:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jita Bloodtear
It seems my posted list of bot names using this macro program is missing somehow... which is odd because there's nothing in the EULA against naming players or calling them out for activities.

Muji4ek 11 - April 11, 2011
tegran shah - April 12, 2011
Kornet 00 - April 12, 2011
Milashka Mala - April 11, 2011
Baron Don - April 11, 2011
Swordsteeli - April 12, 2011
0na Nistka - April 7, 2011
Artem Arheolog - April 7, 2011
Nastya Shturmak - April 8, 2011
Nika Oksaras - April 7, 2011
Pete Kusoni - April 8, 2011
Sara 0'Connor - April 11, 2011
Trannythi - April 12, 2011
Quiatris - April 11, 2011
Spelloyar - April 11, 2011
5 th Element - April 8, 2011
0H0 Ufo - April 11, 2011
Sobaky Doo - April 7, 2011
Falconsfli - April 12, 2011
Crufalcon - April 12, 2011
Krislyassa - April 12, 2011
Millstoner - April 12, 2011
wyvernjack - April 11, 2011
Thotumali - April 11, 2011
Onyxarmy - April 11, 2011
Traamros - April 11, 2011
Fruiany - April 11, 2011
Izobella Shoo - April 11, 2011
Zaebiska - August 27, 2011
Gusta Oriki - Sept 1, 2011
Madjahed Dushman - April 8, 2011
Hollysword - April 11, 2011
Argon Todako - March 12, 2011
danzawar - Nov 17, 2011
burkutun - Nov 17, 2011
TpaxocaH - Nov 17, 2011
Tugdum - Nov 17, 2011

Barmaley Zlodey - March 20, 2011
Mr Kleyton - Oct 2, 2011
Chip and Deyl - Oct 3, 2011
Danna di Saeco - Oct 3, 2011
Bonny Hashem - Aug 8, 2011
Helmut Philla - Aug 6, 2011
Dog Viffer - Aug 7, 2011
Tonny G - Aug 7, 2011
Daniel Negreanus - August 7, 2011
Nadya Magnum - August 7, 2011

0ktaba - Oct 15, 2011
La Bzin - Oct 15, 2011
0rganizma - Oct 15, 2011
Moska L - Oct 15, 2011
Jak Ass - Oct 15, 2011
Viggona - Oct 15, 2011
Zub Nik - Oct 16, 2011
Cucbke - Oct 16, 2011
ElmaaM - Oct 16, 2011
Tussik - Oct 16, 2011
Gorilla S - Oct 16, 2011
Bek Kan - Oct 16, 2011
Bomja Ra - Oct 16, 2011
Gur Stan - Oct 16, 2011
Kiss M E - Oct 16, 2011
Hosioda - Oct 18, 2011
Kotom Kin - Oct 18, 2011

Kvoha - Sept 1, 2011
PortugaleZ - Sept 1, 2011
Forigon Kami - Sept 1, 2011
Stephen Phoenix - Sept 4, 2011
Josephine Saverre - Sept 4, 2011

Gracecaryn - April 12, 2011
Krisuvial - April 12, 2011

Andy Spokovik - Oct 10, 2011
Yelena Ankitiev - Oct 10, 2011
Sisek Net - Oct 19, 2011
Ivan Bogun - Oct 20, 2011


Abrasha - Oct 19, 2011
Arhideia - Jan 18, 2012
Boolp - Nov 22, 2011
Efileon - Jan 19, 2012
GreyzZz - Jan 19, 2012
Halbaund - Oct 2, 2011
Kalgonit - Jan 18, 2012
MakaroB - Jan 19, 2012
Prokol - Nov 17, 2011
Prolis - Nov 17, 2011
Amaranthine Rose - March 16, 2011
Creamed Melons - May 10, 2011
Crest III - March 31, 2009
Cybi Boitoi - Feb 2, 2011
Evgeiy Emelyanov - July 12, 2011
Gopn'chek - Jan 6, 2012
Reyda maricadie - May 3, 2011
Prince Kobol
#36 - 2012-04-02 16:13:14 UTC
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
It seems my posted list of bot names using this macro program is missing somehow... which is odd because there's nothing in the EULA against naming players or calling them out for activities.

List of names



Maybe because a couple of people on that list of complained to CCP that they are being accused of being some thing they are not?
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#37 - 2012-04-02 16:25:01 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
It seems my posted list of bot names using this macro program is missing somehow... which is odd because there's nothing in the EULA against naming players or calling them out for activities.

List of names



Maybe because a couple of people on that list of complained to CCP that they are being accused of being some thing they are not?

This is crime and punishment, we're allowed to name names and complain about any member of the community. It doesn't matter if they complain about being named as bots or not. If it was an actual infraction CCP would have stepped in here and said something about not posting names (thus setting a dangerous precident), but instead they quietly deleted my name list (but not the other name lists). It's a coverup O_O
Blackout Targareyen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-04-02 16:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Blackout Targareyen
Bot miners **** everyone off, mostly miners, since they are creating excesses of minerals and ore on the market thus driving the prices down. I mean, Who knows how profitable mining really could be without a bunch of macro-miners out there artificially controlling prices. Anyway...

It's true that some of the macros out there mimick human behavior, it's what they are designed for. But typically, if I'm out at an ice belt and a ganker shows up, I always creak a smile. Most gankers try to convo people, when they convo me I always direct them to the mackinaw fleets I know to be bots.

I live in Gelhan, a system in the Ammatar Mandate. It has absolutely become infested. 80 people in local, all of them in the ice belt. Once in a while we get some pretty epic ganks out there. Not too long ago one guy scored 8 mackinaws, 2 pods, and one hulk. when all was said and done after that, the remaining pods in the belt continuously warped back and fourth to the station for hours. I logged off shortly after the attack, and when I came back roughly 6 hours later, the pods were still there, warping back and fourth.

So imagine the amount of ISK 8 mackinaws can make in a day, or a month. Then imagine that scenario playing out all over New Eden.... which it currently does.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#39 - 2012-04-02 17:21:01 UTC
Just checked out a few of these. Most if not all of the 2011 chars are not online, but some of the 2012 are. And of Buck Futt's russians pretty much all of them are still online.

How hard can it be for CCP to ban these accounts and then mark/temp ban any character that is linked to them (that Ice has to go somewhere).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
BuzzyBeagle
Centers for Intergalactic Mercantile Acquisition
#40 - 2012-04-02 17:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: BuzzyBeagle
Herping yourDerp wrote:
let me know when you plan on killing bunch of bots so i can get the loot?
i'm not a fan of most suicide ganks, especially the boomerang exploit, but bots deserve no protection


so you are a Dirty Bear Miner [tm] that wants the wetwork done but cannot man up enough to do it yourself and disapprove of the way others are taking care of YOUR competition.

How bout just silently admiring my handsome avatar, and leave the assplosion talk to the big boys.