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New Dev Blog: The 2012 Alliance Panel at Fanfest

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Dek Kato
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#81 - 2012-03-29 04:58:09 UTC
This entire debacle has done more damage to my opinion of CCP than the long string of mismanagement that led up to Monoclegate and Incarna. Overreacting to the yellow journalism that made this story as big as it was will do nothing but harm the sandbox. This is blatant kowtowing to those same crappy gaming sites, who by the way won't cover this action or update their inaccurate articles (many of which as good as claimed this was basically a CCP sanctioned gangbang of one player). The damage has been done, but CCP has decided that rather than accept the risk that comes with their sandbox, they'd rather abuse their EULA by apparently including real life actions outside of the game. Or do presenters sign waivers acknowledging that by presenting, they are agreeing to abide by in-game rules? I rather doubt it. Also they're apparently ignoring the fact that THEIR moderator allowed it, and that THEY broadcast these comments MULTIPLE TIMES.

Mittens comments were not OK, but in the end absolutely zero harm was done, and the player in question has openly admitted that he doesn't really care. Disenfranchising 10k voters (thus making a sham of the CSM...again) and then threatening the entire culture of Fanfest, great response. I was dead set on getting to Iceland next year, but honestly now I can think of far better uses of the money given that I now have no clue what the event will be like. Maybe we can start breathalyzing panelists! Hell, better breathalyze at the door and stop the pub crawls, EULA breaking content might occur!

Stop living in fear of the media, CCP. I do understand that you're trying to control your legal liability here should a player actually do something as a result of comments like these, but this is a **** poor reaction. Next dev blog you post about "growing up", please include a link to for unsubscribing from for my convenience.
Alcaeus Cetsuun
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-03-29 05:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alcaeus Cetsuun
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
CCP in no way condones the harassment of players,


You have got to be kidding me. That line had to be a joke. CCP most certainly does condone this type of behavior. It is encouraged and lauded and bragged about and used as a point of advertisement. You push it all over the internet that Eve is the place where people are allowed to treat others as poorly as possible. The worse you treat others the better and the more press time you give it.

Further if anyone complains about the culture that CCP has purposefully and intentionally created of people mistreating others they are referred to the song written and preformed by Perma Band, and band consisting purely of CCP Devs and employees, in which they are told in no uncertain terms to " Harden The **** Up ".

You condone this behavior, You encourage it, You foster it, You cultivate it. I suspect the only reason you choose to deny it here and now is because someone in your legal department got a hold of you and told you that if this guy does kill himself you guys could be held liable for it. This dev blog is a disclaimer to try and disassociate CCP from any accountability for it's actions.

As far as the law is concerned this may server to insulate you from any financial punishment but in the world of action and consequence what happened on that Alliance panel is a direct result of the environment that you, CCP, have willfully and intentionally created, fostered and nurtured. You may be able to fool the law of the land but you can't fool the law of action and consequence.


This really.
I don't think for a second MOST people take all the BS bravado about being "hard" and evil etc. seriously. And I truly doubt permabands song was meant to be taken seriously in any way..at least I hope so. If it was..lol :p

We are all sitting in front of PCs playing an online video game in the end. Can't get much softer than that I'm sorry to inform everyone. There ARE hard, mean and tough people on this planet...none of them sitting at home whining on some forum.

But clearly some people do take all this too seriously.
So I hope CCP is being sincere here. The past couple days after seeing what happened and also so many of the responses it is apparent A LOT of people have really lost perspective and need a reality check at least.
Reiisha
#83 - 2012-03-29 05:34:03 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
CCP in no way condones the harassment of players,


You have got to be kidding me. That line had to be a joke. CCP most certainly does condone this type of behavior. It is encouraged and lauded and bragged about and used as a point of advertisement. You push it all over the internet that Eve is the place where people are allowed to treat others as poorly as possible. The worse you treat others the better and the more press time you give it.

Further if anyone complains about the culture that CCP has purposefully and intentionally created of people mistreating others they are referred to the song written and preformed by Perma Band, and band consisting purely of CCP Devs and employees, in which they are told in no uncertain terms to " Harden The **** Up ".

You condone this behavior, You encourage it, You foster it, You cultivate it. I suspect the only reason you choose to deny it here and now is because someone in your legal department got a hold of you and told you that if this guy does kill himself you guys could be held liable for it. This dev blog is a disclaimer to try and disassociate CCP from any accountability for it's actions.

As far as the law is concerned this may server to insulate you from any financial punishment but in the world of action and consequence what happened on that Alliance panel is a direct result of the environment that you, CCP, have willfully and intentionally created, fostered and nurtured. You may be able to fool the law of the land but you can't fool the law of action and consequence.


There's a difference between players and characters.

CCP never condoned player harassment. It's in the TOS.

Character harassment however is just fine.




I'm very sad to see that so many people don't see or even understand the difference.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Mutheer Lelmata'eb
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-03-29 05:39:04 UTC
I like how devs seem to make a thread and then run away, never answering a question as to how the eula applies to "out of game actions."
Skyreth
Victoria Per Conquestum
#85 - 2012-03-29 06:14:31 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Skyreth wrote:
Goon tears best tears. If people can't tell what sort of behavior is acceptable, their loss.

If Mitt had not told people to go and abuse that person, and had not given out the name...he'd have gotten away rather unaffected. But telling people on a live feed to find this person and abuse them is way beyond EVEs usual "tough love" play style.

As for if this were a real government official;
If a real government official had told people on television to contact someone and abuse them to make them kill themselves...Yeah, they'd get the boot. Or at least, they would in any country with a sense of self respect and decency.

This was also an action against the EULA on a far more public and open venue than in-game. A venue anyone with any intelligence would have figured would not be appropriate for such remarks. But then...he does represent Goonswarm...so yeah...

That being said, I'll stand by the guy that was targeted by Mitt. No one deserves that sort of thing.


The CSM is not a government entity. It is a customer advocacy group, or at best a panel of customers.


A lot of people come up with the argument that a real politician would not lose their job over something like this, so I was arguing against it. Thats all.
Madame Fanney
stooge in plain sight
#86 - 2012-03-29 06:18:46 UTC
You know it’s not CCP’s fault The GREAT Mitt-ens decided to take something too far, He’s the one who put CCP in the position to HAVE to do something.

I find myself deliciously scrolling through to find the goon (the new pubies) whiny crying posts.

Goon tears are like Gold SNOT SNOT!!
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#87 - 2012-03-29 06:20:37 UTC
Dev blog wrote:
It is moments like this that remind us that there are people beyond the characters we encounter and everyone in the EVE universe should always treat other players with a base human level of respect and decency—whether enemies or not. We would be remiss not to use this as a chance to revise our event and communication strategies.

CCP and the community of EVE Online need to understand this, and we, CCP, will be taking serious steps towards fostering a better environment at our panels and beyond.
Thank you.

EVE online is a game where we can explore a "darker side" of human interaction. Non-consentual PvP, scamming, etc. are all things that make this game great. But in such an environment, we have to be more careful about when we hurt the player behind a character. Every player has to take more responsibility for their actions, and be more mindful of respecting other players.

I understand that this is not easy for all players. But if you can't keep yourself in check, if you can't be mindful of another player's feeling, if you can't respect the player behind an enemy character, EVE is not a good game for you.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-03-29 06:24:20 UTC
Madame Fanney wrote:
You know it’s not CCP’s fault The GREAT Mitt-ens decided to take something too far, He’s the one who put CCP in the position to HAVE to do something.

"something" is covered by ban, removal from the CSM and public apology

threatening to give up on fanfest (you know, that event where players and devs get stupidly drunk together) and turn it into a politically correct mini-blizzcon is something else entirely.

don't invite NVidia or Sony reps if they can't handle it but please don't kill fanfest.
IsTheOpOver
#89 - 2012-03-29 06:30:58 UTC
Yakumo Smith wrote:
CCP sets the tone of Fanfest with it's events.

You can't have drunken quizes on one hand and demands for sobriety and people to "grow up" on the other.


I agree with this.

It's also the reason why a perma-ban would have been far too severe.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-03-29 06:32:21 UTC
So ccp is going to turn fan fest into blizzcon, the dullest, most sanitized child friendly event known to man.


Ccp, grow a pair please, ditch the marketing director, he wasn't very good at Ncsoft anyway, he let tabula rasa get released and stop being Sony's lap dog. They're creepy as hell anyway.
Madame Fanney
stooge in plain sight
#91 - 2012-03-29 06:32:56 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Madame Fanney wrote:
You know it’s not CCP’s fault The GREAT Mitt-ens decided to take something too far, He’s the one who put CCP in the position to HAVE to do something.

"something" is covered by ban, removal from the CSM and public apology

threatening to give up on fanfest (you know, that event where players and devs get stupidly drunk together) and turn it into a politically correct mini-blizzcon is something else entirely.

don't invite NVidia or Sony reps if they can't handle it but please don't kill fanfest.



tbh it wasn't just Mr goon that was a shame to watch on that panel it was all the goon friends on the right hand side of the table, "Jagger-bomb" yeah, that and the power drunkenness was hard to watch.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-03-29 06:39:28 UTC
Good write up +1,000

Goon tears are tasty

Nothing to see here, move along.

Lets NOT be known as the most unprofessional player base in the history of gaming people.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Madame Fanney
stooge in plain sight
#93 - 2012-03-29 06:43:31 UTC
Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to see fanfest go away either, but I can certainly see where CCP the company would have to make some changes and decisions regarding how the conduct them in the future, as they said they are getting bigger and need to grow up a bit. Alcohol is probably going to be fine but they may not allow it on the panel in front of cameras.

goon tears !!SNOT SNOT!!
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#94 - 2012-03-29 06:44:37 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
While not necessarily a crime in most jurisdictions, recommending a course of action in the virtual world with the intent of achieving some negative outcome in the real world is at the very least morally shady.

Clear as mud?


Indeed it is. I'm going to get a Mack, fit it with a civilian shield booster, sit in a Gallente ice belt and decry to all and sundry in local that I am mentaly unstable.....


I didn't think you'd get it. Thanks for proving me right Lol

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-03-29 06:50:37 UTC
I appreciate this direction.

.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#96 - 2012-03-29 06:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
CCP, I was planning to go to Fanfest 2013, and I'll need to book tickets by about the end of May to get the better deals. It would be really useful if you could sort out any changes to format by then, and make sure to let us all know whether there will be major changes.

Here are the changes I can see would need to be made to avoid this kind of incident in the future (just in case you're taking suggestions):

  • Delay the live feed by 8 seconds, be ready to bleep it when people mention antisocial issues such as suicide, "you are a terrible person and should kill yourself", as is done in mainstream "live" productions
  • Leave the Alliance Forum intact, as is, and do not broadcast it live. Leave it as a perk for attendees. Record it and post it later once people have stopped talking about Fanfest (and you've had a chance to edit out the nasty bits)


Options such as requiring presenters to be sober will kill Fanfest. Michael Bolton III was an awesome presenter at the Alliance Panel in 2011, partly because he was barely able to stand up, which played into the general appreciation of Test Alliance as being a bunch of uncoordinated nincompoops.

Anything further than simply delaying the live feed by a few seconds with a bleeper standing by, and removing the Alliance Forum from the live feed altogether will detract from Fanfest. If the people at the venue don't have the freedom to make fools of themselves, it's not really Fanfest.

IMHO, the people at home watching the live feed just want to see cool stuff. We don't mind if it's edited for brevity, clarity or legal butt-covering :)

Of course, even in my trivially-revised version, I would still be disciplining Alex for saying such a spiteful thing.

Goons: they're not ruining the game, just ruining their game.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#97 - 2012-03-29 06:57:49 UTC
Also, Goons, just stop posting, you are only digging yourselves deeper.

You threw your fat weight to defend an undefendable position, and you were stupid enough to continue it even after Mittani had already apologised, admitted the mistake and announced his resignation. You lost, and by immediately throwing your naive tantrum you also lost your face. He did not, your leader was intelligent enough to come through this as a man of his word, complete with spine and balls. You, the no-name plebs, you just managed to look like immature basement dwellers crying a river over nothing.

Maybe you are taking internet space pixels a bit too seriously?

.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-03-29 07:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Madame Fanney wrote:
Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to see fanfest go away either, but I can certainly see where CCP the company would have to make some changes and decisions regarding how the conduct them in the future, as they said they are getting bigger and need to grow up a bit. !

why do they "need" to do this?

I play EVE because the game itself and CCP as a company try to be different and certainly not mainstream.
I also have an active WoW subscription and if Blizzard did something like this I wouldn't bat an eye.

Why? because I approach CCP with very different expectations than I do with Activision/Blizzard.

CCP was able to carve out a very stable niche for themselves by taking a different approach to game design and community management than their larger competitors. The moment they started to open EVE to a larger audience (Apocrypha) their stable growth trend gave way to a much more erratic subscription pattern.

"Growing up" is necessary to break into the mainstream market (where big MMOs with huge budgets die or go F2P after 1-2 years) but I think it is highly questionable that CCP can ever target the mainstream without losing its core playerbase (that provides most of EVE's content) and I had seriously hoped they had learned their lesson after last summer.

The "EVE is real" campaign was mocked a lot but imo the "real" dimension the metagame can take is at the heart of what makes EVE special.
During my trial period I read a lot of EVE history trying to decide whether to subscribe for my first MMO ever or not:
One impressive story was about a scammer using a phone at a public library to maintain contact with his target, running between his computer at home and the phone at the library so the target wouldn't know his real place of living.
Another story was about some guy cutting off power to an enemy FC's home, so his buddies could decimate the now leaderless fleet.
kugutsumen (what you would probably call "a convicted cyber criminal") hacking alliance forums and selling access to them for ISK.
Even small (harmless) things like goons showing up to say hi at BoB BBQs.
And this "EVE is real" promise is kept up in reality - whether it is huge botnets DDOSing voicecomms, certain groups ruthlessly employing client exploits to their advantage or an in-game bank manager using the proceeds of his scam to pay off debt on his RL home. An alliance like PL has internal security measures that would put most medium businesses (which have valuable real-world IP to protect) to shame.

EVE is a bad game but it has a great metagame which is at times so "real" that it makes people commit real-world crimes for an uncertain in-game advantage. What better endorsement for EVE could there be?

A "mainstream" EVE run by Sony would be bland by comparison and attract an audience that would ruin the metagame through lawsuits instead of taking "adapt or die" or "harden the **** up" to heart.

I like playing WoW because it is a very polished, entirely non-committal game and I don't expect anything less than getting milked for all that I'm worth from Activision.

I play EVE for exactly the opposite reasons.

Starting to punish people in-game for OOG actions and the ever larger crowd of players clamoring for legal recourse no matter the situation are bad signs. Given a few years this trend will turn EVE into yet another beautifully walled themepark.
Madame Fanney
stooge in plain sight
#99 - 2012-03-29 07:39:58 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Madame Fanney wrote:
Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to see fanfest go away either, but I can certainly see where CCP the company would have to make some changes and decisions regarding how the conduct them in the future, as they said they are getting bigger and need to grow up a bit. !

why do they "need" to do this?

I play EVE because the game itself and CCP as a company try to be different and certainly not mainstream.
I also have an active WoW subscription and if Blizzard did something like this I wouldn't bat an eye.

Why? because I approach CCP with very different expectations than I do with Activision/Blizzard.

CCP was able to carve out a very stable niche for themselves by taking a different approach to game design and community management than their larger competitors. The moment they started to open EVE to a larger audience (Apocrypha) their stable growth trend gave way to a much more erratic subscription pattern.

"Growing up" is necessary to break into the mainstream market (where big MMOs with huge budgets die or go F2P after 1-2 years) but I think it is highly questionable that CCP can ever target the mainstream without losing its core playerbase (that provides most of EVE's content) and I had seriously hoped they had learned their lesson after last summer.

The "EVE is real" campaign was mocked a lot but imo the "real" dimension the metagame can take is at the heart of what makes EVE special.
During my trial period I read a lot of EVE history trying to decide whether to subscribe for my first MMO ever or not:
One impressive story was about a scammer using a phone at a public library to maintain contact with his target, running between his computer at home and the phone at the library so the target wouldn't know his real place of living.
Another story was about some guy cutting off power to an enemy FC's home, so his buddies could decimate the now leaderless fleet.
kugutsumen (what you would probably call "a convicted cyber criminal") hacking alliance forums and selling access to them for ISK.
And this "EVE is real" promise is kept up in reality - whether it is huge botnets DDOSing voicecomms, certain groups ruthlessly employing client exploits to their advantage or an in-game bank manager using the proceeds of his scam to pay off debt on his RL home. An alliance like PL has internal security measures that would put most medium businesses (which have valuable real-world IP to protect) to shame.

EVE is a bad game but it has a great metagame which is at times so "real" that it makes people commit real-world crimes for an uncertain in-game advantage. What better endorsement for EVE could there be?

A "mainstream" EVE run by Sony would be bland by comparison and it would probably attract an audience that would ruin the metagame through lawsuits instead of taking "adapt or die" or "harden the **** up" to heart.

I like playing WoW because it is a very polished, entirely non-committal game and I don't expect anything less than getting milked for all that I'm worth by Activision.
I play EVE for exactly the opposite reasons.

Starting to punish people in-game for OOG actions and the ever larger crowd of players clamoring for legal recourse no matter the situation are bad signs. Given another few years this trend will turn EVE into another beautifully walled themepark.



Because they have investors, they have a product they are marketing and need their brand to be shown as good and solid, they aren't punishing people in game and they will find a good happy medium Im sure, being in marketing I can plainly see where CCP the company will take the panel's.

for instance the ceo may have been drinking a lot but he showed he was in control of it whilst he was on the stage infront of everyone, he knows I'm sure his limits and wouldn't be on stage stumbling drunk, and forgetting which slides he was presenting. just an example of how they will monitor it in future events.

all it takes is one person to screw the rest.
Endeavour Starfleet
#100 - 2012-03-29 07:41:10 UTC
An absolutely disgusting dev blog. CCP you should be ashamed of yourself as a company for this continued behavior and throwing a former CSM member under the bus for a complete non issue.

So now that Sony is getting a sweat about the whole thing you are prepared to gut fanfest of its freedom and install nice "politically correct" presentations? Perhaps we can have a tea party at fanfest discussing ways CSM member Darius and Ammzi could have been a bit nicer in their communications to the incursion community? Or maybe alliances can read out the numbers of players they have recruited this year or maybe dare I even suggest alliances discussing small disputes over ratting rights in what is obviously a very nice and caring game?

Looks like the Incarna mindset has returned....