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New Dev Blog: Alliance Panel at Fanfest 2012: The Conclusion

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Author
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1321 - 2012-04-02 17:46:39 UTC
Azran Zala wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:


a lot of Goons have QWERTY in mirror writing al over their forehead lately ,how come?


Im laughing too hard at the thought right now to come up with a sly answer.



at least i made somebody laugh today .
But everybody must remember Goon or anti -Goon these forums are watched now by a lot of gaming-blog or - websites
The longer we will let this go on ,well fill in the rest.

I don,t like what Mittani did ,but i don,t want this to last this forever and ever


R.S.I2014

Kara Roideater
#1322 - 2012-04-02 17:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Roideater
Lanasak wrote:
CCP has already made their decision on this matter with the 30 day ban and removal from the CSM. I realize that you are a paragon of morality but when you're putting people's livelihoods on the line you're going too far, especially over some non-event that turned into an unnecessary media circus.


Now, if only people would accept that there was a genuine problem and not a 'non-event' then there would really be nothing left to talk about but as long as the propaganda machine keeps on pushing the damage limitation line other people are going to push back.

Edit - Basically, take it on the chin, stop trying to minimise what was a fairly serious thing and you remove the motivation for other people to paint it as a VERY serious thing by way of counterbalance.
Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1323 - 2012-04-02 18:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Kara Roideater wrote:

Now, if only people would accept that there was a genuine problem and not a 'non-event' then there would really be nothing left to talk about but as long as the propaganda machine keeps on pushing the damage limitation line other people are going to push back.

Edit - Basically, take it on the chin, stop trying to minimise what was a fairly serious thing and you remove the motivation for other people to paint it as a VERY serious thing by way of counterbalance.


And as long as speculators continue to blow it out of proportion or inflate it to conspiracy levels, there will be some willing to call bullsh*t on their dribble.
Lanasak
Doomheim
#1324 - 2012-04-02 18:04:52 UTC
Kara Roideater wrote:
Now, if only people would accept that there was a genuine problem and not a 'non-event' then there would really be nothing left to talk about


Nonsense. You took it upon yourself to take a YouTube video, post it in two separate threads and try to shift the discussion towards this "new evidence" while dragging in CCP Soundwave. Another guy (or your alt) posted it in GD and it was locked. Nobody is debating the morality of what he did - Mittani screwed up. You, however, are willing to take down the lead game designer in pursuit of some agenda.
Kale Kold
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1325 - 2012-04-02 18:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Kold
Mr Kidd wrote:
Kale Kold wrote:
If it was all pre-meditated then Mittani should be permabanned!


It was premeditated. The slide proved it. The "Drinks with Bolton" video from January of this year is overwhelming proof that Mittens had been planning this for at least 3 months. Drunkenness doesn't even begin to work as an excuse. If this were in a court this would be an open and closed case of premeditated cyber-bullying. The "Drinks with Bolton" video also proves that CCP is complicit in this whole fiasco. No wonder they're locking every thread about the situation except this one buried in the Dev blogs that are about as navigable as a maze with no exit.

Should real authorities get involved I would not want to be Hilmar.

"Drinks with Bolton" featuring CCP Soundwave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRQ05Bqq_E&feature=player_detailpage#t=440s


Although this video has now mysteriously been deleted i heard for myself that Mitanni had planned this for a long time.

I totally agree he should be permanently banned from the game.

This could result in criminal action. Inciting a vulnerable member of society to kill themselves has been prosecuted before and if CCP don't act it reflects bad on them.

Here in the UK it's treated extremely seriously.

Quote:

"There has to be some means of ensuring that those responsible for causing someone to take their life, are held criminally liable. The current state of affairs in untenable and cannot therefore be justified,"

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/19/campaign-new-homicide-law-inciting-suicide

CCP ought to check with their lawyers as i bet this guy could sue!

“Some people call me insane for the destruction I’ve caused, ...I believe I was just doing my duty!” -- Testimony submitted to Caldari Navy war crimes tribunal.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1326 - 2012-04-02 18:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Kale Kold wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Kale Kold wrote:
If it was all pre-meditated then Mittani should be permabanned!


It was premeditated. The slide proved it. The "Drinks with Bolton" video from January of this year is overwhelming proof that Mittens had been planning this for at least 3 months. Drunkenness doesn't even begin to work as an excuse. If this were in a court this would be an open and closed case of premeditated cyber-bullying. The "Drinks with Bolton" video also proves that CCP is complicit in this whole fiasco. No wonder they're locking every thread about the situation except this one buried in the Dev blogs that are about as navigable as a maze with no exit.

Should real authorities get involved I would not want to be Hilmar.

"Drinks with Bolton" featuring CCP Soundwave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRQ05Bqq_E&feature=player_detailpage#t=440s


Although this video has now mysteriously been deleted i heard for myself that Mitanni had planned this for a long time.

I totally agree he should be permanently banned from the game.

This could result in criminal action. Inciting a vulnerable member of society to kill themselves has been prosecuted before and if CCP don't act it reflects bad on them.

Here in the UK it's treated extremely seriously.

Quote:

"There has to be some means of ensuring that those responsible for causing someone to take their life, are held criminally liable. The current state of affairs in untenable and cannot therefore be justified,"

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/19/campaign-new-homicide-law-inciting-suicide

CCP ought to check with their lawyers as i bet this guy could sue!


You don't think they're talking about assisted suicide in that quote? Really?

You think that they're talking about people saying mean things? ******* really?

Because last time I checked the main person responsible in an act of killing oneself is---ONESELF.

All that person's life built up to that moment and you want to hold the ninny responsible who said the last mean thing?

******* really?

[edit: This subject is so stupid I almost forgot my main point. THE GUY CANNOT SUE AS, HE DID NOT KILL HIMSELF. Or can you find a spot in a law somewhere that says "almost killing oneself" or "giving increased consideration to killing oneself" as a result of a supposed "tormentor"? Also, what about all the people who ran to The Wis pointing to this "mean video"? Where is their respective culpability? The guy didn't even know what was going on...until you people pointed it out.]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1327 - 2012-04-02 18:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Kale Kold wrote:

Although this video has now mysteriously been deleted i heard for myself that Mitanni had planned this for a long time.

I totally agree he should be permanently banned from the game.

This could result in criminal action. Inciting a vulnerable member of society to kill themselves has been prosecuted before and if CCP don't act it reflects bad on them.

Here in the UK it's treated extremely seriously.

Quote:

"There has to be some means of ensuring that those responsible for causing someone to take their life, are held criminally liable. The current state of affairs in untenable and cannot therefore be justified,"

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/19/campaign-new-homicide-law-inciting-suicide

CCP ought to check with their lawyers as i bet this guy could sue!


The video mentioned no such thing about targeting anyone for harasment.

And your link describes cases of a real people being the victim of physical harassment and domestic abuse.
Not an anonymous alias being ridiculed in a game.
In the real world there is no easy escape for the person being victimised besides "jumping off a bridge", when the authorities fail to protect them.
In a game there is an alternative: CTRL-Q, or in this case, using the other 21 alternative aliases, or writing a petition.

Id also like to point out the parts:
"there is no law in Britain against encouraging suicide without physical help. Only coroner's courts can compel investigations into suicides." and "At best, convoluted efforts are being made to hold perpetrators of violent or abusive conduct to account when a suicide results."

There is no corpse in this case, and even if there was, the law still believes its a stretch to hold someone accountable if you tell someone "Go kill yourself" and they actually go and do it. Its as silly a thought as telling a begger to "**** off & go rob a bank" and you get arrested if he actually does.

Conclusion: If "this guy" had to sue. He'd be loosing alot of money when he ends up paying both parties legal fees.
So I would not encourage it. Large financial debt is a common suicide trigger.
Kara Roideater
#1328 - 2012-04-02 18:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Roideater
Lanasak wrote:
Kara Roideater wrote:
Now, if only people would accept that there was a genuine problem and not a 'non-event' then there would really be nothing left to talk about


Nonsense. You took it upon yourself to take a YouTube video, post it in two separate threads and try to shift the discussion towards this "new evidence" while dragging in CCP Soundwave. Another guy (or your alt) posted it in GD and it was locked. Nobody is debating the morality of what he did - Mittani screwed up. You, however, are willing to take down the lead game designer in pursuit of some agenda.


You can find a post where I mention Soundwave? You must have a version of eve-search that works on alternate realities. Link please as that could be really fun.

Quote:

Nobody is debating the morality of what he did Mittani screwed up.

Really. You must be reading different threads to me. In fact, are you even reading your own posts? Didn't you just say that it was a 'non-event'?

Personally, I would have lost interest days ago if I didn't wake up each morning to find a new line on why everyone else is terrible and disgusting but the Mittani really didn't do anything wrong. We started off with pretty much all the Goons that were posting claiming that actually, there was nothing wrong with what happened at fanfest and a pretty large chunk posting that it would be good if the comments had led to suicide (because Darwin ...). Then we had lots of Goons arguing that the presentation was fine because it didn't break the EULA/ToS. Then it was the freedom of speech issue. Then it was days of posts about how everyone else is disgusting because they are feigning moral outrage, metagaming (!) and trying to secure political advantage. Intermittent Roadhouse posts. Then the countless posts about how 10k players had been disenfranchised. Then the broader moral equivalency campaign and the creation of false dilemmas. Then the blame the media campaign. And all with a constant undercurrent of 'Really, the Mittani didn't do anything wrong but everyone else is a ****!' (a tradition that you appear to be a proud member of).

As I say, hundreds and hundreds of posts like that and people will continue to push back because they will be unwilling to allow you to frame the narrative in those terms.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1329 - 2012-04-02 18:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Lanasak wrote:
Kara Roideater wrote:
Now, if only people would accept that there was a genuine problem and not a 'non-event' then there would really be nothing left to talk about


Nonsense. You took it upon yourself to take a YouTube video, post it in two separate threads and try to shift the discussion towards this "new evidence" while dragging in CCP Soundwave. Another guy (or your alt) posted it in GD and it was locked. Nobody is debating the morality of what he did - Mittani screwed up. You, however, are willing to take down the lead game designer in pursuit of some agenda.


You poor fool. You're calling out the wrong person for the wrong reason. I suggested that CCP bring administrative action against Soundwave. What that action is, I don't care. But in no way did I indicate that he should be "taken down".

It's amusing that your interpretation of the bolton video and the panel video are so narrow that you won't admit how the two are related yet, your interpretation of my statements are so broad that you choose to conclude I want him "taken down". No. What I want is for CCP to handle this in a manner that is proactive rather than reactionary so that if the news of the January video leaves the forum they're seen handling the situation rather than not. Unfortunately, now that people know the LEAD dev is involved such handling will most undoubtedly include Soundwave.

I do think the Mitanni needs a perma-ban as many others have received more permanent punishments for far less.

Hopefully someone has copied the bolton video and can re-post it. Lanasak, if the two videos are unrelated why was the one taken down?

Don't ban me, bro!

Abriael VonRosen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1330 - 2012-04-02 18:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Abriael VonRosen
I'm appalled. Honestly. Not by CCP's decision, but by the fact that many seem to be hell bent on defending Mittani's unacceptable behavior and minimize its gravity. This pretty much validates the opinion i had on certain (luckily very localized) parts of the EVE community, and on the fact that their in-game lack of morals pretty much extends out of the game

You seriously gotta learn to live with it. Mittani screwed up, badly. He's paying the consequences as the visibility he sought so actively came to bite him in the rear. If he was a normal goon in any other game at the moment he would be banned permanently. A 30 days ban and the exclusion from the CSM are a rather mild penalty for his action, and he should deem himself lucky.

Unfortunately paying the consequences of one's actions is something that, in EVE, happens a lot less than what's suggested by CCP's advertisement, so quite a few of you may not be too familiar with the concept.

It's not CCP that screwed up. It's not Sony, it's not the gaming press, it's not the large part of the community that wanted Mittani ousted. It's Mittani that screwed up. If you're angry at the consequences of those actions, the only one you should point your virtual torches and pitchforks at is Mittani himself. Of course many of you won't, because you're extremely biased.

The attempt to bully the gaming press into removing the articles on Mittani's screwup is just as appalling, and I say this as a fellow gaming writer that didn't write anything at all about this whole hubbub, simply because I never felt Mittani to be anywhere newsworthy, and because I think this whole mess shed indirect and undeserved bad press not on Mittani, but on the EVE community as a whole. While the bad press on Mittani was entirely deserved, I preferred to keep silent to avoid dragging the community into the pit with him

While there was a small amount of inaccuracies in reporting the facts, it's rather obvious that those inaccuracies were just marginal to the case in point, and Mittani used the pressure of his people to try and silence the whole (very justified) criticism on his actions

The funniest part is that he's so bent on calling out the "irresponsible press" when he's on the receiving end, but I think everyone can remember how he riled up quite a lot of at least partly irresponsible and definitely biased articles against CCP when it suited his agenda and his personal visibility that seems so important to him.
I know, being on the receiving end of one's own methods is hard to swallow..

In the end the issue is pretty simple. Mittani screwed up badly. CCP dropped the banhammer, legitimately and from an entirely justified position. Defending his unacceptable behavior does nothing else than casting a bad light on this whole community. Trying to bully the free press into silence makes you no friends. Take this as a lesson. It could have been way more harsh.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1331 - 2012-04-02 19:09:21 UTC
Abriael VonRosen wrote:
I'm appalled. Honestly. Not by CCP's decision, but by the fact that many seem to be hell bent on defending Mittani's unacceptable behavior and minimize its gravity. This pretty much validates the opinion i had on certain (luckily very localized) parts of the EVE community, and on the fact that their in-game lack of morals pretty much extends out of the game

You seriously gotta learn to live with it. Mittani screwed up, badly. He's paying the consequences as the visibility he sought so actively came to bite him in the rear. If he was a normal goon in any other game at the moment he would be banned permanently. A 30 days ban and the exclusion from the CSM are a rather mild penalty for his action, and he should deem himself lucky.

It's not CCP that screwed up. It's not Sony, it's not the gaming press, it's not the large part of the community that wanted Mittani ousted. It's Mittani that screwed up. If you're angry at the consequences of those actions, the only one you should point your virtual torches and pitchforks at is Mittani himself. Of course many of you won't, because you're extremely biased.

The attempt to bully the gaming press into removing the articles on Mittani's screwup is just as appalling, and I say this as a fellow gaming writer that didn't write anything at all about this whole hubbub, simply because I never felt Mittani to be anywhere newsworthy, and because I think this whole mess shed indirect and undeserved bad press not on Mittani, but on the EVE community as a whole. While the bad press on Mittani was entirely deserved, I preferred to keep silent to avoid dragging the community into the pit with him

While there was a small amount of inaccuracies in reporting the facts, it's rather obvious that those inaccuracies were just marginal to the case in point, and Mittani used the pressure of his people to try and silence the whole (very justified) criticism on his actions

The funniest part is that he's so bent on calling out the "irresponsible press" when he's on the receiving end, but I think everyone can remember how he riled up quite a lot of at least partly irresponsible and definitely biased articles against CCP when it suited his agenda and his personal visibility that seems so important to him.
I know, being on the receiving end of one's own methods is hard to swallow..

In the end the issue is pretty simple. Mittani screwed up badly. CCP dropped the banhammer, legitimately and from an entirely justified position. Defending his unacceptable behavior does nothing else than casting a bad light on this whole community. Trying to bully the free press into silence makes you no friends. Take this as a lesson. It could have been way more harsh.


If CCP were "entirely justified" they would have called the cops the moment it became apparent to them (read: fanfest) that this "victim" was "suicidal."

Notice how that hasn't happened?

Yet we have it on authority from CCP that their policy (regardless of context--their wording not mine) is to call law enforcement every time. This is as much about caring for the person as it is about keeping people from mindlessly using the suicide card.

Think about it. CCP is not "entirely justified". Not even close.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1332 - 2012-04-02 19:13:56 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


If CCP were "entirely justified" they would have called the cops the moment it became apparent to them (read: fanfest) that this "victim" was "suicidal."

Notice how that hasn't happened?

Yet we have it on authority from CCP that their policy (regardless of context--their wording not mine) is to call law enforcement every time. This is as much about caring for the person as it is about keeping people from mindlessly using the suicide card.

Think about it. CCP is not "entirely justified". Not even close.


Justification has nothing to do with it. They're trying to protect Mitanni with a symbolic 30d ban and whomever was involved. Others have received far harsher punishments for much less.

Don't ban me, bro!

Abriael VonRosen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1333 - 2012-04-02 19:14:34 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

If CCP were "entirely justified" they would have called the cops the moment it became apparent to them (read: fanfest) that this "victim" was "suicidal."

Notice how that hasn't happened?

Yet we have it on authority from CCP that their policy (regardless of context--their wording not mine) is to call law enforcement every time. This is as much about caring for the person as it is about keeping people from mindlessly using the suicide card.

Think about it. CCP is not "entirely justified". Not even close.


Mittani's guilt is evident. The fact that CCP reacted slowly to it has no bearing on that fact.
Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1334 - 2012-04-02 19:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Darth Gustav wrote:

If CCP were "entirely justified" they would have called the cops the moment it became apparent to them (read: fanfest) that this "victim" was "suicidal."

Notice how that hasn't happened?

Yet we have it on authority from CCP that their policy (regardless of context--their wording not mine) is to call law enforcement every time. This is as much about caring for the person as it is about keeping people from mindlessly using the suicide card.

Think about it. CCP is not "entirely justified". Not even close.


Just because they didn't make a dev blog about it doesn't mean they havent.
Just saying....
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1335 - 2012-04-02 19:17:51 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


If CCP were "entirely justified" they would have called the cops the moment it became apparent to them (read: fanfest) that this "victim" was "suicidal."

Notice how that hasn't happened?

Yet we have it on authority from CCP that their policy (regardless of context--their wording not mine) is to call law enforcement every time. This is as much about caring for the person as it is about keeping people from mindlessly using the suicide card.

Think about it. CCP is not "entirely justified". Not even close.


Justification has nothing to do with it. They're trying to protect Mitanni with a symbolic 30d ban and whomever was involved. Others have received far harsher punishments for much less.


You seem to miss the point. If there were some grievous offense against a suicidal person, why weren't the authorities called and dispatched to the victim in question?

If the victim is, in fact, fine - two things:

1) CCP needs to deal with this by contacting law enforcement. Fake suicide threats are serious business.

2) CCP's punishment against The Mittani is entirely baseless. No victim means no offense. If the guy isn't suicidal, then all this can possibly boil down to is sarcasm and allegory.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Abriael VonRosen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1336 - 2012-04-02 19:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Abriael VonRosen
Darth Gustav wrote:

2) CCP's punishment against The Mittani is entirely baseless. No victim means no offense. If the guy isn't suicidal, then all this can possibly boil down to is sarcasm and allegory.


The fact that the victim didn't kill himself doesn't mean that there's no victim. In this case, by the way, the victim isn't just Mittani's target, but CCP itself and this community, over which Mittani attracted a lot of bad press.

I'm afraid you're the one entirely missing the point.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#1337 - 2012-04-02 19:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Darth Gustav wrote:
You seem to miss the point. If there were some grievous offense against a suicidal person, why weren't the authorities called and dispatched to the victim in question?

If the victim is, in fact, fine - two things:

1) CCP needs to deal with this by contacting law enforcement. Fake suicide threats are serious business.

2) CCP's punishment against The Mittani is entirely baseless. No victim means no offense. If the guy isn't suicidal, then all this can possibly boil down to is sarcasm and allegory.

I have said this to you before, but here goes again:

1) You do not know whether authorities have been informed.
2) You do not know what they did if they were.
3) You do not know what lead to them not being informed, if CCP decided to refrain (after contacting the victim).
4) Most importantly, it is none of your business to know. CCP will never and can never publish that information. It is another player's private information that has no place whatsoever on a public announcement or forum.
5) Now stop making a fool of yourself by behaving as if absence of confidential information in public is proof of something.
(That's "something irrelevant", too, as no victim in this case does not necessarily mean no misconduct, but too tired now to explain that again too.)
Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1338 - 2012-04-02 19:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Darth Gustav wrote:


1) CCP needs to deal with this by contacting law enforcement. Fake suicide threats are serious business.

2) CCP's punishment against The Mittani is entirely baseless. No victim means no offense. If the guy isn't suicidal, then all this can possibly boil down to is sarcasm and allegory.



1) As im guessing you already know (but just for others that arn't paying attention): The Wis never threatend suicide, although he did mention he'd been feeling that way since his wife left him.

2) CCP have not claimed they are punishing the mittani for encouraging suicide, they have claimed he is being punished for breaking the TOS/EULA, most likely the player harassment clause.

But your "No victim means no offense." does ring true, if anyone tries to argue for involvement of the law or lawsuites for making someone kill themselves
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1339 - 2012-04-02 19:27:21 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
You seem to miss the point. If there were some grievous offense against a suicidal person, why weren't the authorities called and dispatched to the victim in question?

If the victim is, in fact, fine - two things:

1) CCP needs to deal with this by contacting law enforcement. Fake suicide threats are serious business.

2) CCP's punishment against The Mittani is entirely baseless. No victim means no offense. If the guy isn't suicidal, then all this can possibly boil down to is sarcasm and allegory.

I have said this to you before, but here goes again:

1) You do not know whether authorities have been informed.
2) You do not know what they did if they were.
3) You do not know what lead to them not being informed, if CCP decided to refrain (after contacting the victim).
4) Most importantly, it is none of your business to know. CCP will never and can never publish that information. It is another player's private information that has no place whatsoever on a public announcement or forum.
5) Now stop making a fool of yourself by behaving as if absence of confidential information in public is proof of something not having happened.


1) I know for a FACT authorities were NOT informed.
2) Irrelevant since they were NOT.
3) REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT.
4) I like the, "Nyeah! None of your business!" argument. We knew Alex's personal information, and now he's been smeared all over the internet with REAL CONTACT INFO.
5) It's not foolish because it's ******* true.

You can ask The Wis whether he's gotten any calls from local law enforcement. No need to play the enforced-ignorance card.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1340 - 2012-04-02 19:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Darth Gustav wrote:


You can ask The Wis whether he's gotten any calls from local law enforcement. No need to play the enforced-ignorance card.


if the 1000 people that just read this do that.... I think it would be rather invasive, or harassment even if we didn't intend such.
And also, just because law officials are notified, by some company from another country, that someones feeling "rather sad" doesnt mean they'll send a squad car over to his house or even take it seriously.

Also not everyone provides their real details when signing up for accounts over the internet.