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Regarding the Battlecruiser and Destroyer skill changes
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Mortuus Adamo
Wipe Corp.
#41 - 2012-03-28 20:23:18 UTC
I don't think it will require cruiser 3 since even if i don't have, for example caldari cruiser 3 you could get to a drake just having cruiser 3 and that drake will benefit from your bc 5 even if 3 days ago i couldnt use it.
So if you have bc 5 you should have all 4 bc races to 5 and if you don't have cruiser, then you won't be able to use it until you lvl it up to 3. That or giving us 4xbc 5 skillpoints.

Another thing is that Strategic cruisers are right now per race. If you look those charts the first one ( stating the way things work right now ) have a red arrow on strategic cruisers, but it doesn't on the new ones.

Assault Ships, Hacs, and quite a lot of other ship skills that are not "in the lane of training, frigate > destroyer > cruiser > battlecruiser > battleship > capitals" only have 1 skill per race. And Scruisers are like those ones, maybe they planning to change it so you just have 1 Scruiser skill. It would be nice.
Justice Comes
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-03-29 13:36:37 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Elsewhere, it's been said the best thing to do is train all frigates to IV, all cruisers to at least III (possibly IV, it's only a few days), and BC and Dessie to V.


Well some clarification from CCP would be nice. That's potentially a lot of training to stop our current plans for, and I'll do it if I'm going to lose out on something good. But yeah... confirmation :)

Most annoying thing of the week: You failed to dock/jump because you are cloaked (in your Deep Space Transport).
Alayna Le'line
#43 - 2012-03-29 18:46:07 UTC
Justice Comes wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Elsewhere, it's been said the best thing to do is train all frigates to IV, all cruisers to at least III (possibly IV, it's only a few days), and BC and Dessie to V.


Well some clarification from CCP would be nice. That's potentially a lot of training to stop our current plans for, and I'll do it if I'm going to lose out on something good. But yeah... confirmation :)


Agreed, started training all this now. But I'd seriously prefer spending the time on other stuff. Alas the potential drawback of not doing it is a bit too daunting for a pretty new toon...
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#44 - 2012-03-29 18:49:02 UTC
adopt wrote:
Has CCP got a solid plan for what players will be reimbursed with? I personally would prefer Unallocated SP as some of my characters are not cross trained and have Battlecruisers 5, and I do not want to ruin their skillsheets with 2-3 racial BC that I will not be using.


Ohhh. You "personally would prefer" Ohhh
BUT they will not give you back skill points !!! ahahaha ! Happy :) ? Next time think if you will be want to skill something useless :)

LOVE IT !
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#45 - 2012-03-29 18:49:35 UTC
Alayna Le'line wrote:
Justice Comes wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Elsewhere, it's been said the best thing to do is train all frigates to IV, all cruisers to at least III (possibly IV, it's only a few days), and BC and Dessie to V.


Well some clarification from CCP would be nice. That's potentially a lot of training to stop our current plans for, and I'll do it if I'm going to lose out on something good. But yeah... confirmation :)


Agreed, started training all this now. But I'd seriously prefer spending the time on other stuff. Alas the potential drawback of not doing it is a bit too daunting for a pretty new toon...


Ohhh that's a shame :)
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-03-29 18:54:03 UTC
Spy 21 wrote:
Hmmm....

So what happens if you have all 4 crusier skills trained to III or higher...
Battlecruisers IV...

And Battlecruisers V half trained?

Spy


Well, under what I suggested, you would only get the sp reimbursed for the partial training. Hopefully CCP will announce how it will work well in advance of the actual happening so people don't get caught unaware. But essentially, right now you only need cruiser 3 for battlecruisers or is it cruiser 4? Right now I am posting remotely so cannot get into check skill prereqs and my brain isn't quite remembering the battlecruiser prerequisites.

Anyways a check would occur, and if you have battlecruiser and all cruisers, you would have the min lvl 4 cruiser after since it is a prereq, and all battlecruisers trained to lvl 4.

Now If my other half of the brain is correct and battlecruisers need the cruiser IV, and you only have cruiser 3, then as such, you currently cannot fly any of the battlecruisers, then only a battlecruiser skill SP reimbursment would happen. (again, no access to the actual prereq lists right now to remember training). I assume majority of the people with battlecruiser skill can actually use the ships. So they would still be able to. If you cannot use the ships, then you are not at a direct loss, you have all sp trained, you just don't have access to ships you never did in the first place.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#47 - 2012-03-29 19:00:20 UTC
Justice Comes wrote:
Well some clarification from CCP would be nice. That's potentially a lot of training to stop our current plans for, and I'll do it if I'm going to lose out on something good. But yeah... confirmation :)

Here's the threadnought. Keep clicking on the blue "Dev" tag to cycle through dev posts. It is my understanding that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after the change". That means you have to have the skill to fly it in order to get the skills.

Personally, seeing their progression of Frigate IV -> Destroyer IV -> Cruiser IV -> Battlecruiser IV (basically get the previous skill to IV before you can train the next one), I would train all to IV if possible and then train BCs and Dessies to V .

(thankfully, I personally am already re-speced for ships and guns.)

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rivur'Tam
the united
#48 - 2012-04-04 20:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivur'Tam
Ajita al Tchar wrote:
Rivur'Tam wrote:
i really don't thiunk they will give you all bc lv5 if you only have the 1 trained

i think it will be based on your cruiser skill

ie if you have bc 5

gall cruiser 4

amarr cruiser 3

caldari cruiser 5

mini cruiser 4

you will get

gall bc 4

amarr bc 3

caldari bc 5

mini bc 4

that would be a fair way to do it but giving us all 5 for bc 5 would be great but that would defeat the point of changing in the first place


No, it wouldn't be any more fair, nor would it defeat the point of changing stuff. On that last point, seriously, wtf are you talking about? What do you think the point is (because apparently it's something strange)?

This is a situation where you can't have a solution that will make everyone happy. However you spin it, someone loses out on something except perhaps those who have all cruisers to 5 and BC 5 (you might argue they lose out because they might have to upgrade their clone to a more expensive one). Some will hurt more than others, it's unavoidable. I think that the way that does the least damage involves giving Racial BC V to those who have BC V right now and the Racial Cruiser III or higher. Same for Destroyers and Frigate skills.

AFAIK there are no ships* that directly require BC V so technically you wouldn't suddenly not be able to fly some ship that you could fly before even if BC V isn't given based on BC and Cruiser skills, but then folks would have to spend literally months training up to use their BC's as well as they could before which kind of sucks. Losing Destroyer V would however matter to dictor pilots as you have to have that skill to get into a T2 destroyer.

* DO NOT say "Command Ships require BC V to fly, I won't be able to fly my CS if I lose BC V" because it's not true. The skill Command Ships requires BC V, the ships themselves do not (nested skills). If you already have that skill injected (let alone trained up) it won't suddenly uninject if you lose BC V, thus rendering you unable to fly your CS. Losing BC V will have an effect on bonuses for command ships since one of them is a "Battlecruisers Skill Bonus", but technically you'd still be able to fly it, just not as effectively. For comparison, you *would* lose your ability to fly dictors if you lose Dessy V since that skill is a direct prereq for the ship.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335 why don you read the first section of that and you will see i was right

so will you admit i was right and you wrote emo trash or will you ignore this post pretend u didn't see it or finally will you righ tsome more emo shite

thanks

[b]Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire

^^ my sig was awesome that naugty spitfire stole it for himself true story

United Recruitment Director.[/b]
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#49 - 2012-04-04 20:25:56 UTC
adopt wrote:
Has CCP got a solid plan for what players will be reimbursed with? I personally would prefer Unallocated SP as some of my characters are not cross trained and have Battlecruisers 5, and I do not want to ruin their skillsheets with 2-3 racial BC that I will not be using.


whats the link to the announcement?

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-04-04 20:35:54 UTC
Ajita al Tchar wrote:
* DO NOT say "Command Ships require BC V to fly, I won't be able to fly my CS if I lose BC V" because it's not true. The skill Command Ships requires BC V, the ships themselves do not (nested skills).
Not now, no, but after the change they will, so yes, losing BC V will mean that you will no longer be able to fly the command ships.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-04-04 20:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentinel Smith
I asked about this because of an alt I have training..

It has trained BCV, but has NO cruiser skills, and only the entry level Racial Frigate skills.. I said that the end goal was a Combat toon that can use all 4 races BC's, and if I need to take any additional steps to ensure I get that [ like train Cruiser IV for all 4 races.. ].

I was told that as it stands now, I have nothing to worry about.

The jist was, the easiest, fairest, and least controversial way is just to give people all 4 racial skills at the same level of the current skill.
Sure there are the onesoffs like the OP who for some reason care about what skills they have that they DIDN'T train for.. but for the majority, we just want to be at the same place we were before it.

My alt can't fly any BC's now, and won't be able too after, but still still end up with all 4 racial skills so when I train it up I will be able too.

I'm not positive, I didn't ask, but I assume their thinking is make the skills for the Racial BC skill, the same as the current skills needed for it.. that is just Spaceship Command IV.. And make the Cruiser skill, like it is now, on the Ship prerequisites, rather than on the skills.


Of course, all that being said, everything is subject to change.. so what I hear and am passing on isn't the holy grail..
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#52 - 2012-04-04 20:52:08 UTC
I have all cruiser skills at 5 and BC at 5. I feel safe.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2012-04-04 21:05:08 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
It has trained BCV, but has NO cruiser skills, and only the entry level Racial Frigate skills.. I said that the end goal was a Combat toon that can use all 4 races BC's, and if I need to take any additional steps to ensure I get that [ like train Cruiser IV for all 4 races.. ].

I was told that as it stands now, I have nothing to worry about.
If you have no cruiser skills, meaning your alt cannot fly any BC, then you will most likely not be able to fly them after the change either. That's something you probably should worry about.

If they're going by the “if you can fly it now, you can fly it later” principle, you'll need to get all those racial cruiser skills up to III before the patch happens. There is nothing to suggest that they will give you that cruiser skill if you don't have it already, nor is there anything to suggest that they'll give you ships you can't already fly. You will not need to get the fourth cruiser level, since you don't need it now to fly BCs, nor will it be needed to fly them after the change.

As for the actual prereq list, it'll go from the current:

[racial] Cruiser III
     [racial] Frigate IV
Battlecruisers [whatever]
     Spaceship Command IV

…to:

[racial] Battlecruiser [whatever]
     [racial] Cruiser IV
          [racial] Frigate IV
     Spaceship Command IV
Ai Shun
#54 - 2012-04-04 21:17:47 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
the message is that if you have BC 5 currently you will receive BC 5 across the board. If you have BC 4 then you will receive BC 4 across the board. Same goes for Destroyers.


I'd expect there to be a caveat in terms of support skills. E.g. if you have Caldari Cruiser III+ and Battlecruisers; but none of the other Cruiser skills you will only get Caldari Battlecruiser and not the others as well as you can't fly them anyway.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-04-04 21:22:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
If you have no cruiser skills, meaning your alt cannot fly any BC, then you will most likely not be able to fly them after the change either. That's something you probably should worry about.


You missunderstood my post.. I never said I'll be able to fly them. I simply said that I'll get the racial skill, and will be able to fly them WHEN I train up Cruiser IV.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-04-04 21:26:59 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
THE L0CK wrote:
the message is that if you have BC 5 currently you will receive BC 5 across the board. If you have BC 4 then you will receive BC 4 across the board. Same goes for Destroyers.


I'd expect there to be a caveat in terms of support skills. E.g. if you have Caldari Cruiser III+ and Battlecruisers; but none of the other Cruiser skills you will only get Caldari Battlecruiser and not the others as well as you can't fly them anyway.
How would that be fair ?

Currently the requirement to train BC is just Spaceship Command IV.. Which means after a few hrs, anyone can start it. You'll just make their training dissapear, despite not having the cruiser skill ?

What if I trained BC, and had Gal Cruiser IV, but was working on Caldari Cruiser IV, so I could use the BC for a Drake ? That person is SOL too ?

There are so many thousands of little ways that it's not worth overthinking.. GM's would be flooded with petitions saying I want by BC skill for race X and not Y, or for A and B noy X and Y.. and so forth.

Just turning BC skill into 4 racial skills is by far the easiest and fairest way to go.
Ai Shun
#57 - 2012-04-04 21:32:14 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
Currently the requirement to train BC is just Spaceship Command IV..


True, I'd forgotten - just had to double check in EVElopedia. Ignore my post, please - it was made of dumb.
Alyssa Cristole
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-04-23 03:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Cristole
Sentinel Smith wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If you have no cruiser skills, meaning your alt cannot fly any BC, then you will most likely not be able to fly them after the change either. That's something you probably should worry about.


You missunderstood my post.. I never said I'll be able to fly them. I simply said that I'll get the racial skill, and will be able to fly them WHEN I train up Cruiser IV.


Just because you take the cheep way out to try and cheat the system just to get free skill points doesn't mean you should get them. My opinion is your plan to screw the system total crap and I hope CCP does not give anyone a Racial BC skill unless they have the current races Cruiser III. If you can't fly it at the time of the patch, why should you get it for free?

Here is my point: You can't fly a BC without its racial Cruiser III. There are plenty of other ships in Eve that have secondary and tertiary skill requirements. If you don't meet those requirements you can't fly those ships. You don't meet the requirement for flying BS's right now, there is no reason you should get those skill points.

CCP has said they are changing the Dest and BC skills to match up with the rest of the racial ship skills in game. Does a Thorax SHIP require Cruiser III and Frigate III to fly? No it requires Cruiser III. The Cruiser skill requires Frigate IV, the ship does not require any ship type in the class before it unlike BC's which were different because there was not a racial skill to train. That was the check/balance which is NO LONGER needed and is most likely going to be removed in this patch as part of the rebalancing. Hence, if they DO give you the racial BC skill by just having BC V [but NOT having Cruisers trained to III] you WILL be able to fly BC's of all four races w/o having to touch the Cruiser skill! Think about it; use your brain. Why would they keep a BC ship requirement of having Cruiser III when the new post-patch BC skill is going to require you to have [Race] Cruiser IV first before you can train the new [Race] BC skill? It is unnecessary and redundant which is why that secondary BC ship requirement [Race] Cruiser III will be removed. This means if CCP gives people w/o [Race] Cruiser III, their current BC skill, these people will then be able to fly BC ships they were not able to before the patch.

You have said you already have BC and Dest's to V. You now have a MONTH to train which ever race(s) you want to fly BC's for to Cruiser to level III, something that any character in game no matter what their ability map, implants or current skills could do in that time period. If you don't want to "waste" the time doing so, I hope you don't get s*it for those races you don't have Cruiser III. You have no excuse at this point not training them other then "you can't be bothered right now". Guess what? They shouldn't be bothered to give you those races BC who you cant fly by patch date.

As a new player I had a choice, do it the correct way, the way the game was meant to be played, which is train Cruiser III in all the races, or I could do what you did and f*ck the system by just getting both Destroyers and Battlecruisers to V. I went the honest way, and will have all four racial Cruisers III, BC V, but Destroyers only at IV, 75% to level V by April 22. I can fly all races BC's right now, because I took the time to train those skills instead of trying to screw the system and get free skill points out of CCP that I don't deserve.

I hope that they go the route of "cheaters never win" and don't give you those racial BC skill levels that don't have Cruiser skill to support them, but this is Eve and the game celebrates people who break the system instead of punishing them, so my guess is you will get your free racial BC skill points for breaking the system. I am sure I will see you post patch flying a BC that pre-patch you were not able to fly. Nonsense but that's the way it goes. Get screwed being honest, not trying to cheat or break the game; Circumvent the system/cheat and get rewarded with something you don't deserve.

Ai Shun wrote:
Currently the requirement to train BC is just Spaceship Command IV..


BC only requires Spaceship Command IV because the BC ships themselves have special requirements, like Racial Cruiser III. This is done differently with Dest and BC's because those skills do not have racial breakdowns like the other type of ship skills in Eve. The whole point of this skill change is to make Dest and BC's like every other ship skill. They have already said that to train the SKILL Destroyer it will require Race Frigate IV after the skill change and the SKILL BC's will require Race Cruiser IV. Part of the rebalancing in theory will remove the cruiser requirements from BC ships as that will now be redundant. However, people who expect that they are only training BC/Dest to V and ignoring the other ship requirements like Cruiser basically think they are now going to be able to fly ships they could not pre-patch after the patch, which I hope is NOT the case. These people are basally saying "I got these free tickets to a show, and at the show they are handing out free cookies; even though I don't want to fork up the gas money to drive to the show, I should still get free cookies." You don't get your ass to the show it should mean no free cookies for you. These people should be taking the time to train [Race] Cruisers III and stop trying to cheat their way into a BC.
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-04-23 03:53:04 UTC
I pose this question to you internet gods? I realised a week or so back that this change would be somewhat game breaking. Therefore I've finished destroyers V working on BC V. Now if the skill point change goes through and I haven't finished training BC V, what happens? Will my skill training be copied over several of the new skills to an equal percentage?

There's a few questions CCP would have to answer if they simply broke the skill and gave you 4 skills instead. Because this way, I'm effectively getting a 4x skill training modifier.
Alyssa Cristole
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-04-23 04:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Cristole
Argaral wrote:
I pose this question to you internet gods? I realised a week or so back that this change would be somewhat game breaking. Therefore I've finished destroyers V working on BC V. Now if the skill point change goes through and I haven't finished training BC V, what happens? Will my skill training be copied over several of the new skills to an equal percentage?

There's a few questions CCP would have to answer if they simply broke the skill and gave you 4 skills instead. Because this way, I'm effectively getting a 4x skill training modifier.



There is still so much they need to answer. They have not said anything about half way through a skill training yet. All that HAS been said is that "If you can fly it before, you can fly it after" and there was two options for skill reimbursement they were looking into, but could not rule out something entirely different too. The two options were A) Your current generic Dest/BC level = Race Dest/BC level Post Patch or B) Same thing as "A" but if you don't have the current BC ship pre-req's [Race Cruiser III] you will not get that races BC skill for free.

I have already stated my opinion on the matter above but to answer your question, nothing else but what I just said above which is in italics has been confirmed. That's all. I have scoured the interwebz, read every topic on this forum covering this subject matter, read every dev blog and forum post, and that's all they have confirmed so far.

With less then a month left, I too wish there was more information. Unfortunately, that's all we have. It would be nice if they also gave us an ability remap after this too being that a lot of people burned the ones they had to plan on this skill change.