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Titan changes - update

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steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#721 - 2012-04-11 14:52:33 UTC
5mok1ng gun wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:

5mok1ng gun wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
5mok1ng gun wrote:

Remove Titan SMA's IMO they should not have one anyway and need supporting craft to refit off.


No SMA-equipped ship can refit itself, just saying.

The issue isn't whether or not the Titans have SMAs (they could always use SC or carrier SMAs if they didn't), it's how SMAs work.

E: also, good to know about the week-long holiday in Iceland! Lucky duders :3



Of this I am aware love you goons thinking this is my first rodeo.

Removing the Titan SMA's would reduce the number of ships able to be refitted in any large scale fight where they would be fielded and as stated befor IMO they should not have one.

Granted they could use other carriers / super carriers to refit off but at least the supporting role of the carrier / super carrier would be getting used.

Why should a group of Titans beable to just blap around refitting at will with no support ???

I stand by my previous post


Sorry for assuming, but to my credit there has been a series of obvious highsec-dwellers who've posted ITT about how unfair it is that Titans can refit themselves. v0v

Also to my credit: your argument is still silly. Seriously when are Titans fielded without 2-3 their quantity of supercarriers? Hint: driveby DDs of traveling caps. And that's it. In any fleet battle there are always going to be supercarriers with a titan blob. Probably regular carriers as well (people use them to feed supers cap after jumps).


To answer your question quite recently by Northern Coalition in MC6-5J 3 – 4 days ago (I'm using EVE kill information purely as an example ).
11 titans 8 super carriers and 1 carrier ( that show on EVE kill minus the logistical ships that obviously don’t show up unless they had offensive modules ).
So with current day game mechanics and the numbers above that would give the NC fleet an option to refit 200 ships instead of the change I suggested where they would only be able to refit up to 90 ( this is still adequate and means pilots need to coordinated with others both inside and outside the relevant entities for things such as refitting during large scale combat since I’m sure there was more than just Northern Coalition fighting on one side ).
It should be about the support and coordination that you bring to the fight that determines the ability of your refit options, Well formed fleets should be the key to combat.

The formula should be support + damage + coordination + ability = win
not
damage + no support + no coordination + more numbers than the other side = win

This is my own view of EVE and like others it may not be your view of EVE.

The titans SMAs only allow refitting for 2 ships, and it's not as simple as adding up the total amount of ships theoretically supported by the number of SMAs present, they don't get spread out evenly. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but even in a fleet of all (super)carriers, it's not uncommon to get a message saying that you can't refit because there's too many ships in range of the SMA ship.
In the past it was as simple as counting how many ships were in the 5k radius around the SMA ship, and if it was more then SMA could handle it was impossible to use (for everyone - if there were 11 people in range, all 11 would be unable to refit, rather then 10 being able to refit and 1 not), but it seems like it has been changed semi-recently since that happens way less often and even in huge capital blobs refitting has been working. My best guess is that each ship is assigned to the closest SMA equipped ship, rather then to every ship within 5k like before, and the ship count restriction is based on that instead.

I've never bothered to test it, but the sub-caps seem to not count either - even with an entire fleet sitting on a titan (with no other caps or POS SMAs close) I've been able to refit using it.
5mok1ng gun
Moon Of The Pheonix
#722 - 2012-04-11 15:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: 5mok1ng gun
steave435 wrote:
The titans SMAs only allow refitting for 2 ships, and it's not as simple as adding up the total amount of ships theoretically supported by the number of SMAs present, they don't get spread out evenly. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but even in a fleet of all (super)carriers, it's not uncommon to get a message saying that you can't refit because there's too many ships in range of the SMA ship.
In the past it was as simple as counting how many ships were in the 5k radius around the SMA ship, and if it was more then SMA could handle it was impossible to use (for everyone - if there were 11 people in range, all 11 would be unable to refit, rather then 10 being able to refit and 1 not), but it seems like it has been changed semi-recently since that happens way less often and even in huge capital blobs refitting has been working. My best guess is that each ship is assigned to the closest SMA equipped ship, rather then to every ship within 5k like before, and the ship count restriction is based on that instead.

I've never bothered to test it, but the sub-caps seem to not count either - even with an entire fleet sitting on a titan (with no other caps or POS SMAs close) I've been able to refit using it.



I stand corrected on the Titan SMA's just checked the stats and you are correct sir it is only 2 concurrent users.
IIRC it was 10 at one point or maybe I was thinking of super carriers ( it has been a while since I was flying either ).

I do however recall that sub capitals do count to the total number of ships being a victim of the unable to refit message quite recently.
Sigras
Conglomo
#723 - 2012-04-11 16:59:29 UTC
Val Arkan wrote:
Why not add a new high-slot or mid-slot MODULE that prevents combat re-fitting of the targeted ship?

This offers a new tactical tool to counter re-fitting and adds to emergent gameplay, without doing away with refitting entirely.

CCP was talking about adding new modules anyway.

^^This is one of the best ideas on this thread

1. it adds options to the pilots instead of taking them away
2. It may prevent the lolz blaping titans fits just for fear of being caught with this module.
3. it kills two birds with one stone, it adds new modules and it nerfs refitting in space without removing it entirely.

This needs to be a high slot module as mid slot modules dont effect supercaps, and it should probably be relatively short ranged (<20km) in order to prevent super speedy dramiels from flying around disrupting fights with immunity.
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#724 - 2012-04-11 19:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
To make it more realistic (and intuitive), it could be good idea to base whole midfight refit capability on ship size. It's really weird that huge titan refits in a blink of an eye using tiny orca. "If your ship is able to dock into ship with maintenance, it can refit using it".

Orca can provide insta-refit for BCs and smaller
Carriers for BSs and smaller
SCs for capitals and smaller

If ship size is bigger than allowed - either prohibit refitting at all or apply some penalties (always or only mid-fight). Ships using siege-class modules (triage, siege, industrial core) are automatically moved to penalized ships.

Titans and supercarriers can refit only at 'space dock' services like stationary pos maintenance arrays.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#725 - 2012-04-11 19:43:36 UTC
Honestly if they find a good way to fix supercaps there will be zero reason not to leave refitting unchanged.
Tuscor
13.
#726 - 2012-04-11 21:47:10 UTC
Oh cOme on CCP- don't stifle innovation! Eve has a proud history of encouraging new ideas- so let the combat refitting develop as a legit tactic!
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#727 - 2012-04-11 22:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Greyscale already said they're not planning on doing the no refit while locked thing.


On that topic, though, Greyscale: you say you're looking at possibly removing the fitting service from supercaps. Please, please, please find a way to nerf in-combat refitting for supers (if that's even necessary-- see below) without removing their service entirely. It's really useful to be able to refit off of super while out of combat. One of the only reasons I didn't get rid of my Nyx immediately following your SC nerf was the fact that I could still use it to haul my subcaps around and provide in space re-fitting for the group that I play with.

Also keep in mind that if you actually work out a way to make Titans not-ridiculous when packing tracking fits, there will be very little reason for implementing a combat refitting nerf for them. If you work something out wrt guns, this won't be a problem in the first place.
DelightSucker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#728 - 2012-04-12 01:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DelightSucker
Just remove the DD altogether(and replace SP) and give the titan 8 gun slots. while still adjusting the tracking so they cant blap subcaps so much.

This would give them a Good anti cap damage but we would get away from dreads being insta popped left and right. and Titans would have to focus fire now to actually kill dreads.

Add sig to station. and make the numbers so Fighter bombers make full damage on structures but vs dreads/carriers they would need target painters to get up there. then supers actually either need to sacrifice cap themselves ie Remote reps, or they need ppl do paint for them.This would prolly be hard to ballance but somehow make dreads more usable vs supers and titans less blaping vs subcaps and i think we would be in for alot of fun,

Id love to see those 200 dreads fleets out there again :D
Sigras
Conglomo
#729 - 2012-04-12 02:14:10 UTC
#1 dreads in siege and carriers in triage cant be painted . . .
#2 the with your change the titan still supplants the dread

The titan should not be just a better dreadnaught . . . the titan and the dread should have two different roles or one of them is going to be completely worthless,
DelightSucker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#730 - 2012-04-12 02:36:49 UTC
Sigras wrote:
#1 dreads in siege and carriers in triage cant be painted . . .


Nod forgot about that. but that can be worked around just as supercaps not being immune to ewar
Vheroki
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#731 - 2012-04-12 10:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vheroki
Most of you have no idea what you are talking about and keep posting in this thread only crap. The current need of usage of titans is a flaw due to a more flawed sov. system. Greyscale is running around for his own tail for weeks. I am down to what ever changes you want but make is so that sbu's, tcu's, ihubs can be killed only by capitals so this way a titan will be a decisive ship to use in sov warfare. Now you are crying that titans blap sub then you will cry that titans blap capitals. You just want them nerfed so you can safely kill everything with Maelstroms and drakes. This game needs to put people to work, think , improvise and not being in the same doctrine and win eve just because shear numbers. CCP is babling all the time that they encourage people to think out of the box and have alot of options available, those options are for people that use their brains

My sugestion: TCU , SBU , IHUB can be killed only by capitals - define a good role for titans ( CCP you started with the obvious role of being anti support ship and since then you change like the wind and you prefer to nerf to oblivion everything
POS: can be reinforced only by capitals )


And here you have the place of titans as being a anti-capital platform.

You presented at fan fest a nice presentation of all the ships from frigs to titans. In that presentation was like this Titan - Slow , Imposing - you can't be imposing when you can't kill ****. It is a pain for me to see this game being developed by Greyscale that has no idea how this game actually works, well maybe he does on PAPER.


Good luck Cryswarm
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#732 - 2012-04-12 11:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I'm Down wrote:


Problem with your statement is that simple damage scaling based on signature is removing almost any role the player has in the game. You're almost making it a requirement that players fly certain trump ships rather than leaving the decision up to the the base why one choice is better than another. My fear is that you usher in more of the age of: "Tech 3 is the best because it combines low sig, high tank, high range, high damage, and high speed" Rather than rewarding players who can take a BS and use it within good mechanics.

The game needs to reward players for decisions on both good ship choices and good skills, not just one or the other. The factors that decide a win need to be multifaceted and by saying signature trumps offense exclusive of skill, you are removing 99% of what makes this game unique.


This is a really strong argument. I'm now leaning away from using damage scaling as a general solution to this issue in future, and towards messing directly with the damage formula. That's not a commitment, but I buy the argument about too much RPS and not enough player skill.
On this note [Player skill] if you do revisit the tracking formula could you also consider ‘relative angular velocity’ i.e. actual physical rotation of turrets with respect to a target.

To illustrate; if someone is executing a 'lazy' orbit, and I very carefully and precisely rotate my ship on the spot, there will be a point where angular velocity of my ship due to rotation, matches the angular velocity of their ship due to orbiting, and so the guns nicely line up to target, punishing them for using a lazy, predictable orbit...

Conversely, if orbiting a stationary target in a lazy, predictable orbit, the guns could remain pointing at the same point with no need to track i.e. as long as I kept that stable orbit I wouldn't miss (but would be vulnerable to a skilled target doing the above).

Currently this (static rotation of ship/stable predictable orbits) doesn't work. I’ve tried it many times - visually, it looks like it should be working; the model rotation matches orbiting speed of target and the turrets don’t need to rotate in the mounts, but they still miss. On the other side of the argument, you can have a perfect circular orbit, but miss every hit despite the fact that [again] the guns aren’t even rotating in their mounts.

I can only surmise it never actually works (i.e. lands hits) because as far as the tracking formula is concerned, it’s dealing with a point moving relative to another point when determining if something hits/misses and not the actual physical location of the guns.


TL:DR: the movement of the turret models should be more than just 'eye candy' - if they don't need to rotate to keep a bead on a target the tracking formula should be returning a 'hit', and if they are rotating at crazy speed, a miss.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#733 - 2012-04-12 18:01:49 UTC
Vheroki wrote:
you can't be imposing when you can't kill ****


one-shots capitals != "can't kill ****"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#734 - 2012-04-12 19:24:47 UTC
Vheroki wrote:
Most of you have no idea what you are talking about and keep posting in this thread only crap. The current need of usage of titans is a flaw due to a more flawed sov. system. Greyscale is running around for his own tail for weeks. I am down to what ever changes you want but make is so that sbu's, tcu's, ihubs can be killed only by capitals so this way a titan will be a decisive ship to use in sov warfare. Now you are crying that titans blap sub then you will cry that titans blap capitals. You just want them nerfed so you can safely kill everything with Maelstroms and drakes. This game needs to put people to work, think , improvise and not being in the same doctrine and win eve just because shear numbers. CCP is babling all the time that they encourage people to think out of the box and have alot of options available, those options are for people that use their brains

My sugestion: TCU , SBU , IHUB can be killed only by capitals - define a good role for titans ( CCP you started with the obvious role of being anti support ship and since then you change like the wind and you prefer to nerf to oblivion everything
POS: can be reinforced only by capitals )


And here you have the place of titans as being a anti-capital platform.

You presented at fan fest a nice presentation of all the ships from frigs to titans. In that presentation was like this Titan - Slow , Imposing - you can't be imposing when you can't kill ****. It is a pain for me to see this game being developed by Greyscale that has no idea how this game actually works, well maybe he does on PAPER.


Good luck Cryswarm



lol

Guys, we need to think way outside the box on this one. Everyone fit TWO tracking computers to your Erebuses and Avatars. They'll never see this coming!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#735 - 2012-04-12 19:29:26 UTC
Vheroki wrote:
Most of you have no idea what you are talking about and keep posting in this thread only crap. The current need of usage of titans is a flaw due to a more flawed sov. system. Greyscale is running around for his own tail for weeks. I am down to what ever changes you want but make is so that sbu's, tcu's, ihubs can be killed only by capitals so this way a titan will be a decisive ship to use in sov warfare. Now you are crying that titans blap sub then you will cry that titans blap capitals. You just want them nerfed so you can safely kill everything with Maelstroms and drakes. This game needs to put people to work, think , improvise and not being in the same doctrine and win eve just because shear numbers. CCP is babling all the time that they encourage people to think out of the box and have alot of options available, those options are for people that use their brains

My sugestion: TCU , SBU , IHUB can be killed only by capitals - define a good role for titans ( CCP you started with the obvious role of being anti support ship and since then you change like the wind and you prefer to nerf to oblivion everything
POS: can be reinforced only by capitals )


And here you have the place of titans as being a anti-capital platform.

You presented at fan fest a nice presentation of all the ships from frigs to titans. In that presentation was like this Titan - Slow , Imposing - you can't be imposing when you can't kill ****. It is a pain for me to see this game being developed by Greyscale that has no idea how this game actually works, well maybe he does on PAPER.


Good luck Cryswarm

Here is to hoping that Shadoo's wonderful proposal of removing every combat capability from titans becomes truth!

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#736 - 2012-04-12 23:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: SuperBeastie
One of major problem with titans is the tactics & fleet comps that people use to engage them. The other being a hit is guaranteed if the target has 0 trans

Tactics that don't work


  • Setting a anchor and orbiting someone
  • throwing drakes with sigs the size of carriers at titans
  • flying directly at or away from a titan 0 trans ( i have seen intercepters get blaped doing 3kms because they had 0 trans


Tactics that are more successful


  • instead of orbiting someone approach someone. their job is to keep trans up on the titan
  • use small sig big tank ships a hacs or 100mn ab tengus are really hard for a titan to hit if they keep trans up
  • suicide dreads
  • energy neutralizing ships welp canes & hero cats


Nerf titans the right way change the way hits are calculated from turret weapons. also on a side note 1400's should not be able to blap frigs while we are fixing things

As for refitting this is just ccp going after something that is not really the "Real" problem for example titans dding sub caps and super carrier drones.

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#737 - 2012-04-13 00:14:06 UTC
SuperBeastie wrote:
One of major problem with titans is the tactics & fleet comps that people use to engage them. The other being a hit is guaranteed if the target has 0 trans

Tactics that don't work


  • Setting a anchor and orbiting someone
  • throwing drakes with sigs the size of carriers at titans
  • flying directly at or away from a titan 0 trans ( i have seen intercepters get blaped doing 3kms because they had 0 trans


Tactics that are more successful


  • instead of orbiting someone approach someone. their job is to keep trans up on the titan
  • use small sig big tank ships a hacs or 100mn ab tengus are really hard for a titan to hit if they keep trans up
  • suicide dreads
  • energy neutralizing ships welp canes & hero cats


Nerf titans the right way change the way hits are calculated from turret weapons. also on a side note 1400's should not be able to blap frigs while we are fixing things

As for refitting this is just ccp going after something that is not really the "Real" problem for example titans dding sub caps and super carrier drones.



You are such a bad. Yeah, Titans DDing subcaps clearly wasn't a problem at all. Also please don't advocate making turrets into missiles, thanks in advance.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#738 - 2012-04-13 00:40:55 UTC
SuperBeastie wrote:
One of major problem with titans is the tactics & fleet comps that people use to engage them. The other being a hit is guaranteed if the target has 0 trans

Tactics that don't work


  • Setting a anchor and orbiting someone
  • throwing drakes with sigs the size of carriers at titans
  • flying directly at or away from a titan 0 trans ( i have seen intercepters get blaped doing 3kms because they had 0 trans


Tactics that are more successful


  • instead of orbiting someone approach someone. their job is to keep trans up on the titan
  • use small sig big tank ships a hacs or 100mn ab tengus are really hard for a titan to hit if they keep trans up
  • suicide dreads
  • energy neutralizing ships welp canes & hero cats


Nerf titans the right way change the way hits are calculated from turret weapons. also on a side note 1400's should not be able to blap frigs while we are fixing things

As for refitting this is just ccp going after something that is not really the "Real" problem for example titans dding sub caps and super carrier drones.


This guy speaks the truth. Range needs to affect sig radius. The farther away something is, the smaller it should appear.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#739 - 2012-04-13 00:45:25 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:



You are such a bad. Yeah, Titans DDing subcaps clearly wasn't a problem at all. Also please don't advocate making turrets into missiles, thanks in advance.


I never said it was not a problem you idiot. I just said it was not the real problem because if it was we would not be having this conversation.

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#740 - 2012-04-13 01:04:02 UTC
SuperBeastie wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:



You are such a bad. Yeah, Titans DDing subcaps clearly wasn't a problem at all. Also please don't advocate making turrets into missiles, thanks in advance.


I never said it was not a problem you idiot. I just said it was not the real problem because if it was we would not be having this conversation.


You still want arbitrary limits on gun damage. My point stands.