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Orbital Bombardment Discussion

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Yoma Karima
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-03-28 21:59:13 UTC
E man Industries wrote:
Side thought.

Dusties should be able to drive off an orbating ship.

Rather than a one shot kill uber lazer some sort of contious beam damage would be much better forcing the ship off to repair before returning. This may also weaken a ship so it is easy prey.

The damage would be somethign controlable on the map and upgradable by dusties.


The uber lazer( or sky-fire battery) looks more like a Titans Dooms Day Device with probably the same type of cool-down. Smaller batteries probably exist witch are more like regular warship turrets.

Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#202 - 2012-03-28 22:53:25 UTC
Yoma Karima wrote:
E man Industries wrote:
Side thought.

Dusties should be able to drive off an orbating ship.

Rather than a one shot kill uber lazer some sort of contious beam damage would be much better forcing the ship off to repair before returning. This may also weaken a ship so it is easy prey.

The damage would be somethign controlable on the map and upgradable by dusties.


The uber lazer( or sky-fire battery) looks more like a Titans Dooms Day Device with probably the same type of cool-down. Smaller batteries probably exist witch are more like regular warship turrets.


might be a good idea to have several types of skyfire battery types from dread level damage to titan DD damage levels, all with varying lengths of cooldown.

also in terms of shielding... how bout this?

2 types of installation shielding:

  • orbital bombardment shielding - high damage mitigation and absorption from damage coming from above.
  • Perimeter Assault Shielding - high damage mitigation and absorption from damage coming from ground level


Both shielding has a full dome effect with very little shielding covering either the sides or the top depending on the shield type.

There can ONLY be 1 shield type installed as an upgrade to an outpost. 1 has a weakness to orbital strikes, the other to a ground assault. they cannot be switched out quickly or onlined and offlined to adapt to the dynamic battlefield. defenders have to choose which type they go for, which requires forward planning and the ability to understand your enemy, their assets and their usual attack doctrines.

this is to further the interaction and co-ordination between Dust Merc's on the ground and Eve Online FC's and Fleet members up in orbit.
Davco
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-03-28 23:10:23 UTC
I noticed that a lot of guys are complaining about the dusties not being able to fight back. How about giving them the option to use deployable weapons/shields/scramblers.

Just have them be able to log onto a console and deploy(for a price of course) a shield to protect a given area, or some weapons which would then automatically fire at the ship that's in bombardment position or a jammer which would prevent the ship from locking on or a targeting disruptor which would make it miss. These would all have different prices and they could of course be painted by the dusties to be bombed from orbit(with the exception of the jammer of course) or destroyed by setting a charge on them or something similar. There is a great possibility here for different deployables with different prices, for example there could be a small medium and large shield covering different areas and having different HP.

Ideally the bombarding ship would need to deploy for a given time let's say 3 minutes, as soon as it starts the deployment dust players should be notified that there is a ship in orbit deploying for bombardment with a timer. Furthermore they should get a timer for the interval between bombardments, i.e. xxx Seconds till next bombardment. This will give them time to prepare any defences, such as shields etc. Needless to say that once the ship is deployed it is immobile until it ends it's deployment which could also take some time.

Also a key ingredient here would be for the dust players to have an option to send out a distress call of sorts which would notify all eve players in a given area that there is a ship bombing the planet and offer a bounty from the dusties for destroying it. As well as an option to convo the pilot directly and ask him to switch sides...for a price :)

I believe that by implementing a system like this it allows for Dust players to have a sense that they still hold their fate in their own hands when faced with a ship bombing them from orbit as well as allowing a greater sense of connection between the two games.

Also... strafing runs by bombers and fighters plox.

Thank you.
Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-03-29 07:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zey Nadar
Saint Lazarus wrote:
Zey Nadar wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
My views on orbital strikes

FRIENDLY FIRE ENABLED! I cannot stress this enough this will leave room for backstabbing that eve is accustomed too and Dust 514 needs its fair share.


I say no. Bombardment wouldnt be used for anything but griefing then and the whole point of it would be lost.


People need to stop saying this!

EvE Players dont get to aim, watch the vid, DUST bunnies give lock on code, then target paint where THEY want to hit.

And if you have DUSTies shooting themselves on the ground well you can have an auto kick/ban for repeated FF incidents, and its no diff than someone intentionally grenadin teammates....


Whats the point of friendly fire then if it gets you automatically kicked? Roll

ps. Why did you think its only Eve players who want to grief somebody?
Gilliana SilverDrill
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2012-03-29 08:05:01 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
There must be an element of risk to doing an orbital bombardment,


if an area is painted for bombardment there should be am icon in the soldiers HUD saying there is a targeting laser pointed at him so he can get out of the way if possible. there should be a module on his suit allowing him to backtrack the person painting him so he can take that person out or call for others to do so.

not all orbital strikes are going to be instantly deadly to every soldier. his suit is like a mini personal ship and if he has enough defenses he should take huge damage from the strike but not necessarily be instant roadkill. maybe blown back off his feet and forced to drop his weapon or stunned and take time to get up.

i can see players " myself included " exploiting the orbital bombardment mechanics to just have a few snipers sitting on hilltops around the base calling in strike after strike and never entering directly into combat themselves.

EI Digin wrote:
Battlecruisers, who can use battleship weapons but with drastically less cost. Anything smaller than battleship weapons should be not very effective on a tide-turning scale, but might be good for taking out a tank or a group of clustered-up players. ----


i think ships should do damage comparable to the weapons they can mount. small ships work well against anti personnel but lesser so against vehicles. larger ships work better against vehicles but don't track moving personnel as well. capitals work good against structures and vehicles but the area of effect is so great they don't hit personnel well other than blow back.

ship size would also affect damage taken from planetary defenses. small ships can quickly warp in. move to launch position, fire of their strike and warp away but be highly susceptible to planetary defenses. larger ships can take more hits from the planet before they need to warp away but need longer to move into position and lock onto the target.

EI Digin wrote:
---Different gun types should have different bombardment effects, both visually and the types of damage dealt and the precision of the strike. ex: Autocannons can be more spread out and deal less damage, whereas a beam laser will be right on target and do a ton of damage, but only have a small area of effect.----


different ammo types should work better against different types of targets. explosive and thermal should work best against troops where em and kinetic against vehicles and structures. each balances bye troop fits and racial bonuses of course.

EI Digin wrote:
Of course, the planets should be able to fire back and destroy at anything that can shoot at it, so if you allow titans and supers to bombard, the planets should be able to kill them too. The anti-bombardment guns shouldn't necessarily require the ownership of a specific, highly-important structure, but it could potentially be a deployable, or a minor objective on a map. It should be destroyable by eve players, but repairable by dust players if they receive the opportunity.
Saint Lazarus
Spiorad ag fanaiocht
#206 - 2012-03-29 17:17:46 UTC
Zey Nadar wrote:

Whats the point of friendly fire then if it gets you automatically kicked? Roll

ps. Why did you think its only Eve players who want to grief somebody?



EvE is about betrayal, you betray a corp, you can get kicked

Why do you think DUST should be different? its just automating it because......you know, its a frantic FPS. you want them bring up corp menu mid game to kick some a$$hat?

Just a bad idea that slows down gameplay.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#207 - 2012-03-29 17:22:28 UTC
In earlier talks, they had about FF incidents. And the mechanics make fps griefing more difficult. If somebody orders a teamkill, they won't be getting supplies or drops from the field commander. They also wont be getting the lucrative high paying combat. Battle rating will drop, no ability points to spend on skills to get the cooler gear. Just like eve, actions would have concequences. Griefer orders a drop, well, nobody in space if they are on comms are going to pull the trigger for them.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Rimase
#208 - 2012-03-29 18:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
'Ability' Clarifications
EVE-side
  • Orbital Bombard (Missiles & Drones) - (Long multiple shots)
  • Orbital Strike (Lasers, Hybrid Charges & Projectiles) - (Short single super-shot(s))
  • a newR.U.S.E. - EVE players can execute them (immediate, inefficient).
    • DUST-side
  • Orbital Artillery (Planet Platform) - (Short single super-shot, long cool-down)
  • Aerial Strike (Air Unit(s)) - EVE capsuleer suggests an Air Strike, DUST sqd-Member suggest an Air Strike but DUST sqd-Leader can execute the Air Strike.
  • a newAerial Deterrant (Ground Unit(s)) - (Shoots 'ewar flaks' - Rapid-fire flaks with deflective properties: 0.4 sec shield bubbles (anti-missile/projectile), scattered junks of deflective surfaces (anti-laser/hybrid) consequently causing Kinetic damage to nearby aircraft)
    • [*]a newR.U.S.E. - DUST players can request and execute a R.U.S.E (slow, efficient).

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
Rimase
#209 - 2012-03-29 18:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
EVE Player Skills and Masterings.


Learning the Skills:
  • Planetery Management: Planetology - The understanding of planet evolution and allowing you to better interpret data from scans of planets for resources and strategic orbital attacks.
    • (This skill is for Planetary Harvesting and Orbital Destruction)

  • Planetery Management: Geometric Pinpointing - Considering the planet's gravitational strength, o-zone thickness, weather and geometry variations, tactical circumstances and other variables is key on deciding where to land a strike or find a 'blob' of harvesting Jackpot.
    • (Improves planet-orbit positioning bringing you almost strategicly directly above the battlefield thus allowing up-to 105 percent damage output and reveals concentrations of resource deposits)

  • Planetery Management: Angular Positioning - Considering the planet's cubic size, orbital stability, battlefield geometric and strategic circumstances and other variables is key on evaluating a strike's potency.
    • (Promotes striking at greater orbital distances from the DUST battlefield by increasing the angular range land-vicinity threshold)
    NOTE: The further your ship from the battlefield means reduced area-of-effect of Strikes and increased estimated arrival time of your Bombardments, regardless of skill.

  • Planetery Management: Advanced Planetology - The advanced understanding of planet evolution allowing you to interpret data from scans of planets for resources at much higher resolutions and understand the inhospitable planet's compositions possess additional strategic advantages and disadvantages, dangers and exploitations of non-Temperate planets for application in battle.
    • (Bonus: The skill further increases the resolution of resource data when scanning a planet to allow for very precise surveying & disproves each planet-type's natural military penalties increasing success-rate of bombardments and strikes.)
    Note: Increased success-rate only applies to planets where there are clear, prompt penalties.

  • Electronics: Survey - Skill at operating ship, cargo and survey scanners. This skill prompts you with calculated information provided by planet-side mercenaries confirmed by your ship-crew. This important information suggests which munition is best to use for your current orbital location, current planet-type and which is best against the battlefield's overall damage-resistance compositions. 5 percent improvement per level in the scan speeds of those module types.
    • (Bonus: Each skill improves information by collecting more information thereby improving accuracy. Level 5 reveals a definitive result suggesting one ammunition, corresponding to your module type (Turret type or Launcher), that isn't in your Cargo Hold upon each survey.)
    Note: Until level 5, you are not suggested an ammunition-type that is not in your Cargo Hold.

    Mastering the role:
    Location: You have to find the battlefield first and position yourself above it or near it. This should be easy. You must find this place before you can do anything combat-related against a planet. Position yourself above it accurately or your orbital attacks will be weaker! You (EVE and DUST players) can see this damage percentage to make a tactical decision. Keep in-mind there's a battle in space, too, probably Webifying the orbital attacker.
    Key piece of equipment would be a renewed Micro-Warp Drive, specialized for ignoring a planet as an obstacle (fictional-theorizing) being a T2 Tactical Orbit Relocator giving a rapid response to DUST.

    Ammunition: The properties of ammunitions are used in varying range damage output, damage-type(s) for selected visual effect a tactical damage bonus (Falloff diminishes bonus damage).

    T1 (Standard/Economic) munitions would all have their own distinct visual properties and distinct damage-type application onto DUST.
  • Orbital Bombardment - Drones & Missiles (ETA #.# minute(s), 3 minutes of awesome).
  • Orbital Strike - Lasers, Hybrids, Projectiles (Instant, 6 seconds of awesome).
    • T2 (Specialized) munitions, maybe ignoring their space-side specialized properties if any, have the same distinct amplified damage-type application with an added physiological extra! (read below)
  • Advanced Autocannon & Artillery Projectiles - (shakes all DUST players temporarily)
  • Advanced Beam & Pulse Laser Crystals - (blinds all DUST players temporarily)
  • Advanced Blaster & Railgun Charges - (deafens all DUST players temporarily)
  • Advanced Cruise Missiles - (clears whole battlefield but can be countered!)
  • (Advanced) Fighters & Fight-Bomber Drones - (clears whole battlefield but can be countered!)

    • Communication: a Planetside Munitions Surveyor device using the electronics Survey skill will only collect an average result; an unspecific tactical result. DUST players can communicate with EVE orbital attackers on what specific damage-type to use to be more effective!
    DUST players can also communicate the potentially additional variations of what they already have in-game (in-DUST). e.g. DUST's air strike is similar to EVE's Orbital Bombardment of Drones and Missiles. DUST's R.U.S.E. is similar to EVE's R.U.S.E.
    EVE-DUST player can also communicate the timely attack of an Orbital Strike & orbital circumstances preventing an orbital strike. These change tactical decisions e.g. "No OS! Everyone equip anti-vehicular! Now!"

    Risk Assessment: (Year 2013 of non-Temperate planets). EVE & DUST players will have to consider the penalties of orbital attacks on inhospitable planets. e.g. a Gas planet might blow up, a Lava planet may tremor and mass-erupt, Oceanic may cause a tsunami, Barren may disturb planet NPC inhabitants (which then later attack space), etc...
    Tech1 ammunition would decrease risk.

    Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
    Nova Fox
    Novafox Shipyards
    #210 - 2012-03-29 19:27:36 UTC
    Please don't cross post. I dont like going all over the place to tear into ideas that I am most likely not going to be happy with.

    Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
    Revolution Rising
    Last-Light Holdings
    #211 - 2012-03-29 19:35:03 UTC
    Re: Countering orbital strike, what about some kind of deployable shield generator that just works over a smallish area and limited in number allowed deployed at once.

    If you're holding a particular area it gives the defenders an advantage (They can't just be bombed into submission while the troops stand at a safe distance).

    It allows attackers who get their troops on the planet but then lose the space above the planet a fighting chance. They would have a safe harbour from the bombardment and be able to deploy into the area from that safe harbour.

    I really loved the demonstration btw. Was completely awesome to see 2 games linked in such a strategic fashion. Can't wai for it to get into the game.

    .
    Markus Reese
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #212 - 2012-03-29 19:38:55 UTC
    Revolution Rising wrote:
    Re: Countering orbital strike, what about some kind of deployable shield generator that just works over a smallish area and limited in number allowed deployed at once.

    If you're holding a particular area it gives the defenders an advantage (They can't just be bombed into submission while the troops stand at a safe distance).

    It allows attackers who get their troops on the planet but then lose the space above the planet a fighting chance. They would have a safe harbour from the bombardment and be able to deploy into the area from that safe harbour.

    I really loved the demonstration btw. Was completely awesome to see 2 games linked in such a strategic fashion. Can't wai for it to get into the game.



    Hey, that is an interesting idea that involves ewar. A mobile shield generator like what somebody said before (ground and orbit protect) Would help protect against orbital strikes, but counter with neuts/ewar and the like. Syncronize with space to brind down an orbit strike defender.

    To quote Lfod Shi

    The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
    Revolution Rising
    Last-Light Holdings
    #213 - 2012-03-29 19:47:25 UTC
    Markus Reese wrote:
    Hey, that is an interesting idea that involves ewar. A mobile shield generator like what somebody said before (ground and orbit protect) Would help protect against orbital strikes, but counter with neuts/ewar and the like. Syncronize with space to brind down an orbit strike defender.


    Yeah I see what you're saying, awesome idea man. Ground based ewar/other stuff could be a truly great mechanic - allowing for even more interaction between games and strategic decisions.

    Nice one.

    .
    Claire Voyant
    #214 - 2012-03-30 19:20:59 UTC
    These are my suggestions for the first iteration of orbital bombardment, based on the idea of finding a minimal working version that is still fully balanced. I do this because I know CCP wants to go slow and there are also technical challenges that need to be considered. I don't want to waste my time designing orbital bombardment version 2.0 until we've seen what version 1.0 is.

    In general, I think orbital bombardment should be used to tip the balance of a battle, but not completely dominate it. Orbital bombardment should involve you risking the loss of your ship to either counter-attacks from the ground or from hostile ships in space.

    Requirements:
    - Only in lowsec or null sec.
    - Friendly ground forces must have a certain number of kills in the battle before calling in OB.
    - Take out player placed jamming or shield installations before calling in OB.
    - Called in by Dust player within a range of the target and carrying special comms equipment.
    - Ship must be located withing range of a district warp-in point.
    - Only damages players and vehicles. Does not destroy installations or infrastructure.
    - Time delay before OB can be reused and calling in a second strike requires additional ground kills

    Counter-attacks:
    - OB module has a warm-up period which is broadcast to Dust commanders in MCCs in the district.
    - Only one OB module can be engaged above the same district.
    - Engaging OB module causes defensive batteries in the district to open fire on ship.
    - Engaging OB module lights a beacon in system.
    - Defensive stasis batteries can web a ship and drag it into the planet's atmosphere.
    - OB module automatically cycles until all ground battles in district are over or ship is destroyed.

    Counter-counter-attacks:
    - Defensive batteries can be taken out by ground forces in separate battles either before or during the main battle.
    - OB ship can be repped and shield/cap transferred.
    - Larger OB ship can tank damage better but is still vulnerable to stasis batteries and hostile fleets.

    I have tried to make this as asynchronous as possible, on the assumption that there may be time dilation in the system. For example, the firing, damage, and effects of the Dust defensive batteries will be under the complete control of the Eve fleet/fight system until it receives notice that the batteries have been captured by ground forces. The only effect on Dust players would be a longer wait time for the orbital bombardment warm-up. In a system under time-dilation you could plan ahead and make sure to engage the OB module earlier so it would be ready when the ground troops needed it.

    There needs to be some way for corps that control the surface defensive batteries to prevent them from firing on friendly ships with active OB modules, but that would need to be under the control of the Dust players in case of betrayal (as in the video.) For example, Corp A hires Corp B to provide OB support. Corp A puts Corp B (or pilot X or Alliance Z) on the "do not fire" (DNF) list. The battle is underway and they call in an OB but they don't know that Corp B is working for the other side who has already called in a strike on Corp A. Once Corp A starts receiving fire from Corp B the MCC commander can remove Corp B from the DNF list and the batteries will open fire, albeit a little bit too late. (Or maybe the Dusties betray a titan pilot by turning on the web stasis batteries and dragging it into the planet.)

    I think it is easy to argue that OB should be somewhat nerfed in the first iteration. It is better to err on the side of caution and have it be too weak or hard to use and have it used too little than to have it be too powerful and used too much.
    Weiland Taur
    The Icarus Expedition
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #215 - 2012-03-30 19:30:43 UTC
    I'm going to take the unpopular stance and say that orbital bombardment should not be an aspect of Dust unless CCP is willing to make it more realistic. A tungsten rod hitting the planet from orbit would obliterate (completely destroy) one of the maps shown at Fanfest. It would incinerate everyone on the map. As the famous marine said, "game over, man. Game over."

    The Battleship example that was shown was to be honest, underwhelming. No structural damage that we could see (I could be wrong). No shockwave effect. The list could go on.

    CCP if you are going to do orbital bombardment do it right. Make it a big deal. Make it dangerous for the ship doing the act and make it matter on the ground. What I saw looked like someone dropping glowing grenades. When I wear my tin hat on the weekends, I have suspected that the Titan nerf was secretly to make sure that titan pilots couldn't glass planets in Dust. As modern US military doctrine has proven, if you control the skies the guys on the ground are in a lot of trouble.
    Nova Fox
    Novafox Shipyards
    #216 - 2012-03-30 19:40:39 UTC
    was going to edit my first post and found out I ran out of room o-o.

    Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
    Alpheias
    Tactical Farmers.
    Pandemic Horde
    #217 - 2012-03-30 20:36:03 UTC
    Any chance we will see biological and/or chemical ordnance to drop on the roaches that scurry along planet side?

    Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

    Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
    Rhapsodyy
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #218 - 2012-03-30 20:55:24 UTC
    Some great ideas, though i havnt had time to read everything in the thread.

    Was chatting with grid earlier and it sparked a variation of one of his ideas so i thought id post it before i forget it or he hijacks it completly lol :)

    Basically we were talking about Fighters/Bombers, and if Dust mercs could say have an airfield on the planet, and launch Fighters/Bombers from the ground, and a dust merc could sit in the "Control Tower" of the Airfield and control them, using a tactical overlay to assign them to targets.

    They could launch up to say 10-15 at one time and if they have more in stock can launch fresh ones when deployed ones are destroyed. On their own Fighters/Bombers are not a huge deterant, but they could provide support for freindly eve players in orbit, or help to chase away and small groups/ships. Hell maybe they should be able to control loads more at once.

    However the technical issues, and server load? i bet they are another matter if you start letting multiple districts on thousands on planets start launching fighters into orbit in eve.

    Anyway Flame on! \o/
    Gogela
    Epic Ganking Time
    CODE.
    #219 - 2012-03-30 20:58:16 UTC
    eliorra wrote:
    Gogela wrote:
    Gogela from yesterday wrote:
    Gogela from 2 days ago wrote:
    I have a mechanics question.

    I'm an avid Halo player. Lag is a straight up killer. I don't even want to play a laggy game... at all. EvE is different so it's not really as big an issue in big fleet fights, and time dilation is just awesome. Truely... so nice work there. Now for the question:

    What happens if you are sitting in siege in your dread above a planet getting ready to nuke the surface and 2000 of your closest friends warp in and the system goes into time dilation? What happens on the ground in DUST? Are the DUST players on the same tranquility node?

    Thanks in advance for any replies.

    Dang Gogela from yesterday... that was a good question! I don't know the answer...

    Totally. Gogela from 2 days ago that is a pretty good observation. I'm amazed that no-one has thought of this. Think FPS'ers are gonna go for time dilation?
    Gogela from yesterday wrote:
    Nope

    Yah... me either...



    Basicaly, I don't think it's an issue.Because Dust battlefiels are on there own servers.So I guess there is simply a signal sent from TQ to Dust servers saying "OB has been accepted for this request".But in the details ...maybe something might not connect has intended.

    But of course I don't have the lines of code so I might be totaly wrong P

    Actually that sounds pretty good. I didn't know that the DUST battleservers were unique. That's good... totally side steps the TiDi problem. If there's a delay in the strike that's fine. If there's a delay in the headshot it's not. That was my question. Thanks!

    Signatures should be used responsibly...
    Grideris
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #220 - 2012-03-30 20:59:09 UTC
    Rhapsodyy wrote:
    Some great ideas, though i havnt had time to read everything in the thread.

    Was chatting with grid earlier and it sparked a variation of one of his ideas so i thought id post it before i forget it or he hijacks it completly lol :)

    Basically we were talking about Fighters/Bombers, and if Dust mercs could say have an airfield on the planet, and launch Fighters/Bombers from the ground, and a dust merc could sit in the "Control Tower" of the Airfield and control them, using a tactical overlay to assign them to targets.

    They could launch up to say 10-15 at one time and if they have more in stock can launch fresh ones when deployed ones are destroyed. On their own Fighters/Bombers are not a huge deterant, but they could provide support for freindly eve players in orbit, or help to chase away and small groups/ships. Hell maybe they should be able to control loads more at once.

    However the technical issues, and server load? i bet they are another matter if you start letting multiple districts on thousands on planets start launching fighters into orbit in eve.

    Anyway Flame on! \o/


    This is a terrible post and you never should have posted it. P

    http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need