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Off Gride Command Bonuses Please don't nerf them.
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Freezehunter
#161 - 2012-07-29 15:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Freezehunter
Whar Target wrote:
I can't imagine the number of lost subscriptions any on-grid booster nerf would result in.

Go ahead, whine and troll me for saying it, but it's the truth and CCP knows it.

It would also be another buff to blob warfare and a nerf to solo pvp.


It's not solo if you have alts/friends boosting you with huge bonuses safely off grid, stop talking out of your anus.

And no, no one but fail PVPers that need 5+ alts to beat someone in a "take this can for 1v1" fight would quit because of that, and that is a good thing.

Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom.
Freezehunter
#162 - 2012-07-29 15:58:49 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Do not forget to consider implications in all kinds of gameplay. Ninjas for example... it is difficult enough to get the bear to shoot at you as it is. Imagine if you have to show up at the mission's grid with the command ships behind you.


Here's a thought: do real PVP instead of shooting mission runners like a ***.

Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom.
Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-07-29 16:30:31 UTC
Nerfing off-grid boosters will be yet another blow to small-gang pvp and varied gameplay. Think about it, if people are at risk of losing their boosting ships, they won't bring them at all, meaning that warfare links will become just yet another useless novelty mod in the market window. Not to mention all the unsubbed booster accounts.

If anything, the lesson we should be taking from off-grid boosters is that if EVE pvp is going to be saved from homogeneous mediocrity, more support roles should be moved off-grid or to a POS. Maybe then some people will actually start making use of the wide range of support ships EVE already includes, like logistics and Falcons, instead of just undocking in buffer battleships.

– postum faex est – 

never forget
Katalci
Kismesis
#164 - 2012-07-29 16:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
There is no reason to nerf offgrid ganglinks. It's already very impractical (and dangerous) to use for anything but solo; you're without links while the t3 is creating its safespot. Offgrid ganglinks greatly improve local tank, letting solo players engage greater odds than before -- nerfing offgrid nerfs solo.

Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
How about a sig explosion when using boosters. Easier to scan down when you are putting out such massive electronic signals.

Why do you want to nerf the on-grid Damnation into the ground?
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#165 - 2012-07-29 16:50:27 UTC
Katalci wrote:
There is no reason to nerf offgrid ganglinks. It's already very impractical (and dangerous) to use for anything but solo; you're without links while the t3 is creating its safespot. Offgrid ganglinks greatly improve local tank, letting solo players engage greater odds than before -- nerfing offgrid nerfs solo.

Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
How about a sig explosion when using boosters. Easier to scan down when you are putting out such massive electronic signals.

Why do you want to nerf the on-grid Damnation into the ground?



Lol, since when is using "offgrid boosters" playing solo? Roll

As someone with a command ship toon I say nerf the offgrid....Then I don't have to fly two ships in combat...Cool

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#166 - 2012-07-29 19:29:45 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
It should be on-grid only, but I agree this could lead to command ships being primaried. Therefore, they should have an increase of, say, 25% in the tank of command ships while engaging the boosters as well as the tank given by the boosters. While in small fights this could lead to having one tough nut to crack, in big fights it means that the 400+ alpha battleships don't just tear it to pieces in two volleys and so the logis have a little more time to react.

In the case of Gallente command ships, they just need a massive revamp.


Command ships already are some of the toughest cookies in the game. Not to mention that if they are going to be forced to be on-grid, large fleets will likely start building in some redundancy anyway.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2012-07-29 21:20:45 UTC
I've never really understood the complaining about this on grid/off grid stuff. The game is fairly well balanced in this regard with only a few exceptions.

Bottom line, what's is the complaint? That you come into a system and there is someone who is faster, has longer point, and stronger shield/armor than you? Well, simple. You bring a couple of Corps mates and spend the damn time and bring your own boosts. Two fleets that are boosting the same stuff in the same system have ZERO advantage over the other. The one current advantage one side may have over the other is that one might be in a POS. Ok, so i suppose CCP could make it that your not able to activate in a POS and its absolutely balanced.

If your unwilling to dedicate the time, corps mates, etc then make some friends. Solo be damned. If you want a truely fair 1v1 then arrange the fight and fleet up together to ensure no boosts are pushed. But at the end of the day the most fair way to make boosts works is to bring your own and it works the same way for everyone.

On grid boosting requirement is about the dumbest idea out there. Why?
1) all advantage lies with the defense as they can have their boosters well positioned on the field.
2) WTF is on grid anyway? Its so easy to jack with the grid, you just have to do some Fu and can easily kite a force off grid from its booster.
3) There is often action on more than one point of a system and if your defending multiple spots being forced to only one spot with current mechanics of fleet formation would limit options.

I think all the whining about this is people who just don't want to spend the time training leadership skills. I fleet boost and FC all the time from a T1 BC. Most the time I am on grid and target painting while I call primary and run two command links at the same time. I don't use an alt to do it. Look at my loss mails and you'll see them. So don't think I'm defending a tactic that I personally use. But the most balanced and fair way is very simple: Bring your own, its system wide, you figure out how to make it work. What I would change?

1. Sure can't activate in a POS just to shut up whiners. Again, I don't really think this is neccessary because again you can bring your own boosts and everything is equal in system.
2. Command ships need the +5 instead of the T3's and while some are beefy tank, some really suck. Ie, the Astarte and EOS blow.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#168 - 2012-07-29 21:57:47 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
I've never really understood the complaining about this on grid/off grid stuff. The game is fairly well balanced in this regard with only a few exceptions.

Bottom line, what's is the complaint? That you come into a system and there is someone who is faster, has longer point, and stronger shield/armor than you? Well, simple. You bring a couple of Corps mates and spend the damn time and bring your own boosts. Two fleets that are boosting the same stuff in the same system have ZERO advantage over the other. The one current advantage one side may have over the other is that one might be in a POS. Ok, so i suppose CCP could make it that your not able to activate in a POS and its absolutely balanced.

If your unwilling to dedicate the time, corps mates, etc then make some friends. Solo be damned. If you want a truely fair 1v1 then arrange the fight and fleet up together to ensure no boosts are pushed. But at the end of the day the most fair way to make boosts works is to bring your own and it works the same way for everyone.

On grid boosting requirement is about the dumbest idea out there. Why?
1) all advantage lies with the defense as they can have their boosters well positioned on the field.
2) WTF is on grid anyway? Its so easy to jack with the grid, you just have to do some Fu and can easily kite a force off grid from its booster.
3) There is often action on more than one point of a system and if your defending multiple spots being forced to only one spot with current mechanics of fleet formation would limit options.

I think all the whining about this is people who just don't want to spend the time training leadership skills. I fleet boost and FC all the time from a T1 BC. Most the time I am on grid and target painting while I call primary and run two command links at the same time. I don't use an alt to do it. Look at my loss mails and you'll see them. So don't think I'm defending a tactic that I personally use. But the most balanced and fair way is very simple: Bring your own, its system wide, you figure out how to make it work. What I would change?

1. Sure can't activate in a POS just to shut up whiners. Again, I don't really think this is neccessary because again you can bring your own boosts and everything is equal in system.
2. Command ships need the +5 instead of the T3's and while some are beefy tank, some really suck. Ie, the Astarte and EOS blow.


Your argument makes no sense.....if everything is equal, then why wouldn't it be better for the ships to be on the field...equally?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2012-07-30 04:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
on grid boosters remind me of the old way of warfare with muskets. wihere everyone formed up in lines fired and then walk 2 paces and fire again.

then when the British had to fight Americans they they had to deal with Morons who would use cover and keep shooting their officers.

when removing the Off grid boosters all together it sounds like dumbing down the game to chivarly standards of the old British Musketiers

. With the POS Fix coming out in the future and the POS shields disappearing. The Boosting from a POS game breaking feature will be removed.


Many many more rorquals will end up dieing for it.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#170 - 2012-07-30 07:45:10 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
on grid boosters remind me of the old way of warfare with muskets. wihere everyone formed up in lines fired and then walk 2 paces and fire again.

then when the British had to fight Americans they they had to deal with Morons who would use cover and keep shooting their officers.

when removing the Off grid boosters all together it sounds like dumbing down the game to chivarly standards of the old British Musketiers

. With the POS Fix coming out in the future and the POS shields disappearing. The Boosting from a POS game breaking feature will be removed.


Many many more rorquals will end up dieing for it.


It's the off-grid boosters that are the part dumbing down the game. It takes zero skill to maintain them and are a mandatory 'choice' for any fleet.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Lyskal Oskold
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2012-07-30 07:51:08 UTC
Off-grid boosts are lame, lame like blobbing. They make carefree skirmish warfare lame too.

If you want bonuses for an entire fleet or to make insane roaming frigates, risk it by taking the booster too. Cry harder. Nerf it IMO.

"Love is just a chemical, no matter the origin. We give it meaning by choice." - Eleanor Lamb
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#172 - 2012-07-30 08:07:52 UTC
For me what crystallises the debate is when someone says "it's not difficult you can do it yourself". That, to me, indicates that something is at the very least imbalanced. If you're fighting 1v1 and the other guy can do everything 30% better, but you can't see why and can't remove this advantage - then something is wrong imo.
Molokhe
Art of the Possible
#173 - 2012-07-30 16:26:52 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
So.. let me see if I've got this right.

Some people want to have EvE changed so that command ships have to be on grid in order to be effective, but the primary concern is that they will be shot up because they don't have enough tank. So the immediate response, from some, is to buff the CS so they have more tank.

Please explain how "fit more tank" and "yield vs. tank" do not apply here?



You could add "risk vs. reward" as well. Blink

The thing that confuses me is the comments saying this would increase blobs. Wouldn't it be a case of less semi-afk Command Ship alts because if you want the bonuses, you'd have to switch some of your active pilots in your fleet to Command Ships? So the number of actual active ships wouldn't go up, unless the current situation is that most of the Command Ships aren't flown by alts of people in the main fleet?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-07-30 19:03:02 UTC
Been out of this thread a bit, breezed over, so will cover a few points.

1. Small gang end of boosts - This is a falsitiy. Much like any other small gang warfare, you bring ships to match your fleet. The Commships can be fit to meet in with small gang. If you are worried about the cost, then you do what I did for years. T1 battlecruisers with a ganglink.

2. Alpha striked commships - Very valid. I think one major benefit would be if commships were also able to fit the lock breaker, or a proper antiblob mechanic. My thought was always a secondary "Ewar" effect that is caused by damage. As more damage is ensued, this value increases and damage falls off. Fluff would fit easily simply because of the energy/shrapnel/etc makes it harder to hit a ship. Related to sig size and damage mod. Topic for another thread though.

3. Alphastrike commships pt 2 - Need a bs sized booster possibly. Stronger than a commship and costs more, but maybe only two links or a slightly lesser bonus, dunno. Also people mentioned ganglink carriers, I have fits for those, they work nice within a capital fleet.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2012-07-30 19:03:15 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
At fan fest some dev mention a preference to have command ship command bonus requiring ships to be on grid.

My question are:
With this not remove the Planet Hugging/Safe Spot hiding/POS staging Command ship or t3 cruiser which may have lesser of a tank?
Will this not remove the role of the Combat Scanner Role in mega fleet fight that is to find out the location of these Ships?
Will not change the Role of Command Bonus for Mining. Placing the Rorqual at the belt in Industrial mode? There for removing the need for a hauler at a belt. Due to the selection of ore coming out of the belts, the Rorqual has a hard time compressing ore unless it is at a POS with access to a corp hanger.


I am concerned about forcing a certain type play style over another.

May I recommend a compromise:
Tech I Command modules can be off grid but Tech II Command Modules provide their Bonuses while on grid.


Forcing most command ships to be on grid does remove them from the game, because they get primaried and if fit to boost they die, FAST.

The LULZ Boat.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#176 - 2012-07-30 19:11:32 UTC
Who primaries a Damnation first in any fight?

(admittedly not every command ships is a Damnation but I see no reason why the bonuses for the other fleet command ships can't be reworked to be similar)
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#177 - 2012-07-30 20:26:44 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
I've never really understood the complaining about this on grid/off grid stuff. The game is fairly well balanced in this regard with only a few exceptions.

Bottom line, what's is the complaint? That you come into a system and there is someone who is faster, has longer point, and stronger shield/armor than you? Well, simple. You bring a couple of Corps mates and spend the damn time and bring your own boosts. Two fleets that are boosting the same stuff in the same system have ZERO advantage over the other. The one current advantage one side may have over the other is that one might be in a POS. Ok, so i suppose CCP could make it that your not able to activate in a POS and its absolutely balanced.

If your unwilling to dedicate the time, corps mates, etc then make some friends. Solo be damned. If you want a truely fair 1v1 then arrange the fight and fleet up together to ensure no boosts are pushed. But at the end of the day the most fair way to make boosts works is to bring your own and it works the same way for everyone.

On grid boosting requirement is about the dumbest idea out there. Why?
1) all advantage lies with the defense as they can have their boosters well positioned on the field.
2) WTF is on grid anyway? Its so easy to jack with the grid, you just have to do some Fu and can easily kite a force off grid from its booster.
3) There is often action on more than one point of a system and if your defending multiple spots being forced to only one spot with current mechanics of fleet formation would limit options.

I think all the whining about this is people who just don't want to spend the time training leadership skills. I fleet boost and FC all the time from a T1 BC. Most the time I am on grid and target painting while I call primary and run two command links at the same time. I don't use an alt to do it. Look at my loss mails and you'll see them. So don't think I'm defending a tactic that I personally use. But the most balanced and fair way is very simple: Bring your own, its system wide, you figure out how to make it work. What I would change?

1. Sure can't activate in a POS just to shut up whiners. Again, I don't really think this is neccessary because again you can bring your own boosts and everything is equal in system.
2. Command ships need the +5 instead of the T3's and while some are beefy tank, some really suck. Ie, the Astarte and EOS blow.


Your argument makes no sense.....if everything is equal, then why wouldn't it be better for the ships to be on the field...equally?



If it's all equal, why have any boosting ?

Remove boosting entirely.
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2012-07-30 21:23:53 UTC
AraniFyr wrote:
It should be on grid...too big of an advantage for such low risk


I agree.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.