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Armor and shield compensation skills to V?
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Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-25 18:39:00 UTC
I'm debating on whether or not I should train all my armor and shield compensation skills to just IV or go all the way to V. If I don't go to V I will be able to either shed time off of my skill plan or make room for better skills.

Getting all of them to V will give me a 25% increase in a resist which can be very handy, but with both shield AND armor resist skills I will be shedding off 100 days from my skill plan or be able to train something more beneficial. It seems weird to add just a 5% boost to each resist in exchange for 100 days of training.

So what should I do guys?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Kyr Evotorin
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-03-25 19:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyr Evotorin
Compensation skills only affect the resistance amount on modules, not your overall resists. Passive modules get the most out of these skills, for they get actual resistance added onto their values. Active modules (hardeners and such) only give a bonus when they are forced offline (getting neuted out). I'd say IV for you, because, the fact that you don't know this means that you haven't been playing long enough for V to be worth your time. no offense, but you need to learn to use google good sir. (edit: hardeners don't have to be 'forced' offline, but they should only ever go offline due to being forced :P)
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-25 19:15:18 UTC
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
no offense, but you need to learn to use google good sir.



Google (or any search engine for that matter) produces specific but often outdated results. I did a little looking any most of the stuff I could find about the subject (that would best suit me) is from two or three years ago which may or may not apply to today's game. Or the modern results are extremely vague.

Nonetheless, thanks for the feed back.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
#4 - 2012-03-25 19:15:56 UTC
if you really want to train those to 5, train EM resist for shield and explo for armor .

That being said, I dont think you should prioritize these skills unless you are well advance in your overall training goals.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-03-25 20:52:57 UTC
Train armour to 5, shield can stay at 3 or so since only idiots use passive shield mods.

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Mocktar Olachenko
#6 - 2012-03-25 21:05:01 UTC
Shield comps aren't really worth it, since outside a few niche fits you'll almost never use passive resist mods.

For armor, all to V is worth it in the long run. For short term, you can make do with IV for all and V for explosive.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-03-26 02:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
If you armor tank and use EANM a lot, sure, train all the armor comps to 5.

If you shield tank and use resist amps a lot, sure, train all the shield comps to 5.

I have them all trained to 5 because I do both, and I didn't have any higher priority skills to train.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-03-26 07:48:01 UTC
question is what is it you want to do.

PvE leave shield at 4, PvP train it to 5.

It's main use will be when you are targeted with a Neutraliser and some ships might have use for a pasive Em restance module.
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#9 - 2012-03-26 13:39:36 UTC
sooo ... thats it all about you say .... interesting ... so when you turn off hardeners they magically transform into not so ordinary passive armor :-
which is good if you need to recycle 100MN MWD to run away ... am i close ?

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Togrockz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-03-26 14:26:10 UTC
if u plan to jump in a super or a titan soon, then yes train the armor ones to V. Otherwise dont bother with them untill u have pretty much nothing else to train.U dont get really any serious bonuses after all diminishing returns apply compared to the time u will invest training for those.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2012-03-26 17:17:12 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
question is what is it you want to do.

PvE leave shield at 4, PvP train it to 5.

It's main use will be when you are targeted with a Neutraliser and some ships might have use for a pasive Em restance module.


Actually, shield comps probably come up more in PvE. Yes, they tend to be niche fits, but it's not like you can mount a fully passive armor tank -- you can with shields.

Generally you'll know when you want them though. It's just that it's usually too late to dump time into the skills by then.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#12 - 2012-03-27 01:34:32 UTC
My first thought is: What do you fly most? That should give you a basic 'shield vs armor' priority level.

And second: You mentioned 100 days. Level 4 is a no brainer and you should do that regardless. Then level V (These are rank 2 multiplier skills) should be maybe 8 or less days each. 30 days for armor comps V, or 30 days for shield comps V.

Having them at 5 will feel like a nice accomplishment when you do it. "Do you have to have them?" nope, but they are not a bad choice to train.
Ahaz Darkfall
Division One Trade and Aquisition
#13 - 2012-03-27 16:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahaz Darkfall
Goran Konjich wrote:
sooo ... thats it all about you say .... interesting ... so when you turn off hardeners they magically transform into not so ordinary passive armor :-
which is good if you need to recycle 100MN MWD to run away ... am i close ?

The issue with shield comp skills is that active shield hardeners actually have two resist bonuses. the high resists(30-55%) when the module is active(turned on) and a passive resist(1-5%) when the modules is turned off. the shield compensation skills only affect the passive resists, not the active resists. There are passive shield amps that will get a major boost from shield comp skills but even with shield comp at 5 the resists of those modules are still lower than the resists you would get from active hardeners. For this reason they are rarely used.

Passive fits are far more common for armor as there are very limited active armor modules. Limited to damage specific hardeners and repers, the most popular armor resistance boosters are I believe the Energized adaptive nano membrain II (20% base resists) which is a passive module(does not need to be turned on) and gets full benifit from the armor comp skills. But many ships in EVE are not good armor tankers. So it entirely depends on what you plan to fly whether armor comp skills are worthwhile to get to 5.

You also need to keep in mind that both shield and armor resist modules and rigs suffer from diminishing returns. What this means is the higher your resists the less effective resist boosting modules are. If you have less than 30 mil skill points you would benefit far more from other skills than you will from getting shield or armor comps to 5.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#14 - 2012-03-27 18:05:45 UTC
I started as a Caldari/Shield only pilot. I got my shield compensation skills up to 4 when I was around the 10 M SP range. They have come in handy occasionally.

When I was around 25M SPs, I cross trained into armor tanking. I trained up the armor compensation skills to 4 in the same month I trained for T2 Armor Repair modules. These skills have proven to be more useful.

Now I am nearing the 100M SP mark.

Maybe I'll get these skills up to 5 within the next year... maybe the year after that... There is always something more urgent to train.
Katalci
Kismesis
#15 - 2012-03-27 21:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Armor to level 4 if you only fly subcaps, level 5 before you even think about jumping into any capital hull.

Don't bother with shield compensations unless you're using passive hardeners for something, then train it when the with fit the need arises.
Pyro Tsu
Sarum Industries
#16 - 2012-03-28 18:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyro Tsu
Math is your friend. Let "HP" be the amount of armour or shield your shiny new toy has, a bad guy has to apply "DMG" points of damage before that line of defence is gone:

HP = DMG * (1 - Res)

And now comes the fun, given 1000 HP:
0% res will need 1000 DMG
75% res (=0.75) need 4000 DMG
78% res (=0.78) need 4545 DMG
...
98% res (=0.98) need 50'000 DMG
99% res (=0.99) need 100'000 DMG

So the damage to be applied to you needs to be increased to (1 - old_res)/(1 - new_res) of the original damage.
The higher your resistances already are, the more you gain from that skill. The more HP your vessel has, the more likely that plus of EHP will have a measurable effect. Returns are diminishing if you have several modules of the same kind and stacking penalty applies.

For example:
You fly a T1 passive-fit Megathron and your skill for Exp damage is at level 4.
Then your res is about 67.7%.
At skill level 5 it will be 68.0%.
The Megathron in question has 12.6k armor - under Exp damage that's 39k EHP at skill level 4, or 39.375k EHP at skill level 5.
Those 0.375k (about 1% more EHP) are less than a second more survivability against a single cruiser.

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Raven Ether
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-03-31 16:00:04 UTC
Their only remotely viable use is in Supercapitals.

Don't waste your time with them.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#18 - 2012-04-01 03:21:56 UTC
Train all to 4!

Train Shield EM to 5.

Train armor exp to 5.

Then if you want to push it further train shield therm to 5 and armor kin to 5.

I don't feel the other ones are worth more then 4 unless you have a ship in mind that your are trying to all L5 skills for and use a mod that would benifit from the others.

Good luck. Cool
Rashpla Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#19 - 2012-04-04 06:16:23 UTC
Finally explanations I can understand, thanks to all who took time to post valuables :)