Intergalactic Summit

Hmm.. by that logic, parents are perfectly justified in abusing and beating the **** out of their children even after they've grown and left home...

Suddenly, being a parent doesn't seem so bad. I might have to look into that.

Though I guess I'd probably have to adopt...

This is such a flawed analogy!

First and foremost, those "parents" were never justified in abusing and beating their children - like no parent is ever justified in doing! Saying that they can "even after", implies they could before, in their infancy. This is a fallacious premise, and like every wrong premise, can't lead but to wrong conclusions.

Secondly, because the case in question is not about parents able to beat the children once they grow up, but a fight between parents AND grown up children (well able to bomb and drown Nouvelle Rouvenor, I remind you). Which is again wrong on oh-so-many-levels it's not even funny to debate.

Third and last, the point was not being able to fight one's parents. Simply to acknowledge the historical gratitude debt that the Caldari people (determined and proud as they are) owe to the Federation people (pompous and self righteous as they are) when the first contact was made between a far more technologically advanced society with a less evoluted one.

No doubt Caldari would reach the stars, eventually, one day. No doubt either that the day came earlier due to Feds "absorbing" them. And this debt of gratitude has nothing to do with either people's right (or lack thereof, in my view) to attack and/or oppress the other.

Again I must respecively request that you do not tell others what they may or may not be offended by in response to the actions, or in this case, words of another. It risks providing the Federation's critics with an example of the arrogance I mentioned in an earlier post.

The fact is, that yes, words can be offensive. But the offense felt isn't "manufactured" in the workshops and factories of the ILF in Placid like some tool of secession. There are plenty of examples of similar offense felt by others in the face of repeated Federation insensitivities.

But you misunderstand me if you think that I'm suggesting the problem is the misuse of "Gallente" or "Federation" simply as convenient terms. It's what these terms represent to those involved. It's what they mean.

Look to the State. The Deteis did not see fit to apply their own name onto the wider state and force a situation where Achura and Civire efforts for the State are regarded as examples of Deteis achievements. Collectively they are Caldari. And the Republic. The Sebiestor, Vherokior and other tribes are not part of the Brutor Republic, for example. Each with their own identity intact they are collectively Minmatar.

However the Gallente have pushed their own name onto the Federation and so we arrive at the situation where everything is simply Gallente at the cost of acknowledging something's or someone's actual origins. The issue is, because the Gallente are both a constituent part of the Federation and the wider Federation as well, this casual interchanging of terms has become rife with a wave of the hand to the disenfranchisement it risks for those who's own identity is considered expendible.

But it's not simply that people interchange the terms Gallente and Federation. There are countless occasions where I have come into contact with someone in the cluster and they have said, "You're from Placid? You must be Gallente." In real terms the Gallente have become the sum total of the entire Federation. I'll repeat something I said earlier. I am not Gallente.

Let me use an example that goes some way illustrate the offense caused in a similar if not identical scenario:

You meet someone at an event and following an introduction they get your name wrong. No matter, it's easily resolved and you correct them. Yet still they get your name wrong. You correct them again as they appear to be confusing you with someone else. And again. And again, but still the mistake is made. Over the course of the evening, despite your best efforts they just don't get it right, and what's worse is they appear to be aware of it.

They simply disregard your irritation as nonsense, after all it's only a name. A label.

The fact that the Keating family might be held in esteem in it's home community or there might be an established, meaningful family tradition marked each year is just irrelevant. That Paul might be a family name given to the eldest son for generations and that you are proud to bear it is nothing to them. Of course these are just examples but I'm sure you can see my point.

But it's only a name, right? A label. A means to identify you from the next man. It's not the sum total of who you are as an individual. It doesn't reflect your achievements on it's own. Yet it has an emotional value to you and your family. It was given to you by your forebearers. It has meaning. On some level it is who you are.

But that someone cannot even bring themselves to respect you so much as to get it right doesn't matter. It's just a name.

Mr Keating, when dealing with cultures and their interactions, words and language can cause offense. Cultural identity is a precious thing. The Federation would do itself a great service to not just speak of the inclusion of all but to practice it. Acknowledge the fact that cultural neglect through one's poor choice of words can be equally as damaging and offensive to a people as the oppression previous generations endured in the past.

You continue to claim that the Federation is not culturally inclusive only because of the name 'Gallente Federation'. Yes that is the common name, and yes it does have the word 'Gallente' in it. It has become synonymous throughout the cluster with the sovereign state known as the Gallente Federation, it's planets and all it's people. Not because of any insidious Federal scheme to destroy Intaki identity but because that is simply what it is has been called since it's founding.

The meaning of the word 'Gallente' is what you make of it. What a person on the street means is a person who is part of the Gallente Federation, where the Gallente Federation is simply the name of the nation. You however seem to draw meaning using a person's ethnic background as if were truly important. You continue to spout that you 'are not Gallente' as if anyone who is should be reviled for it. Perhaps what you see is not the Federation being un-inclusive, but your own desires for an exclusive Intaki state populated only by the privileged few.

It might be worth noting that the culture of the ethnic Gallente, them being the direct descendants from Luminaire directly, has equally been influenced (or "corrupted") by other cultures.

The Gallentean homeworld is swarming with immigrant populations, and to many right-wing traditionalists, a lot of the world has been "ruined" by these migrants, and a significant portion of the classical culture has been lost. An old quote from Luminaire would put it by saying "it takes two to tango".

In addition, Federation citizens of Intaki descent, primarily those in government, have been as equally responsible for this so-called "cultural imperialism" towards other ethnic groups.

There is no denying that the lines between all cultures within the Federation, and to a lesser extent across the entire cluster, blur as a result of interaction.

Let me return to the opening comments of this discussion and the focus on "what it means to be Gallente".

It is easy enough for someone, anyone to identify something which is quintessentially Jin-Mei or Minmatar. Following similar discussions on what it meant to be Amarr or Caldari the title of the opening comments had suggested we could explore the culture of the Gallente. The ethnic Gallente. The Gallente of Luminaire.

As the General points out, this culture too finds itself influenced by others through immigration and interaction and yet there appears to be no initiative to preserve it, to teach others of it's wealth of history and influence on Luminaire today?

I am curious to learn that while others actively and publically explore their own cultures as a mark of pride in their heritage, why is this not reflected amongst the ethnic Gallente?

Earlier in this debate there was reference to a cultural melting pot, and I had responded with the idea that such a melting pot creates something greater than the sum of it's parts. The Federation however does not feel like this is what is happening.

It feels as if each constituent culture dillutes itself, mixing and merging with the others but instead of something identifyable and richer being created we are left with a grey paste.

Goonswarm never ceases to surprise me. Well said, Lyris Nairn.

That is the correct stance to take, in my opinion. Anything otherwise would be like putting the trailer (if one wanted that particular trailer) before the truck. If the point is self-determination (meaning or especially one's self-determination upon a planet or within a system) then one should aim for self-determination and not muck it up with how he's going to self-determine himself.


I have to admit that I'm a little surprised at that (and I do reject the concept of an "exclusive, privileged few", except in terms of who might not have the Isk for a bus ticket). Here's the thing. I don't see the concept of an independent Intaki having all that much value if it doesn't involve it being rooted in Intaki culture. Now, what happens with culture, of course, is that people who share a culture tend to appreciate each other and, you know, have babies; and people who have babies-together tend to share or develop the same culture. The result is that race and culture go together. Presumably (with pockets of resistance here and there, of course) we have this same situation on Intaki. They were, are, or are becoming a People. I'm fine with that. BUT. To suggest that it's not a home-world for the Intakis (and I mean to include all those ethnic Intakis out there and those whom they love), then the movement loses force. It becomes a merely political question, not, as it should be largely, an emotional one.

On a merely political question, I fear that the Federation would probably "win"—they (and by "they" I mean largely the Gallente) do have some great logicians. "We are a federation," they might say. "You are a planet within the Federation. Do you wish to discuss with us the means by which you run your planet? Ah, but that is largely your affair, no? We would not think to interfere on a merely local level. But if you have doubts as to our involvement, then we are certainly open to debate. That is what a parliament is for, yes? Please, come this way."

The point is to develop, not a degree of self-determination, but an actual People's Self-determination, so that one does not have to "come this way" even in the face of logic (or often so-called). That requires more; it requires identity —love, patriotism, history, the indefinable "God" of who a People is (or wants to be).

So, if the argument is merely political (as in who gets to say what to whom), then there may still be a case. The worst scenario, though, would be for it to be merely political while simultaneously inflating the emotional issues as a cover. Oh, the Federation is going to see right through that, I'll tell ya. How else could it exist?

Hmm, I guess we're still on topic... Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts, Mr. Bataav, and I don't imagine that we're all that far off in spirit. If you take the centrist position, which it appears that you do (and of which Intaki Pure sounds like the far right), then the movement has wings.

Brilliantly well put.

This discussion has turned into a minefield of "watch what you say, some zealot nationalist of one of several factions will jump down your throat over a simple miswording" sadly, so to see posts like the above stick out is a pleasant sight.


What does it mean to be Gallente? That question could be answered 1,000 different ways if you asked 1,000 different people. Everyone has their own beliefs based around a few guiding principles and ideas, and their means and ways of interpreting them will differ due to the free thinking society within not just the Gallente race but the entire Federation.


For me, it is to enjoy, defend and uphold the notions of such liberties as free speech, free thought and free expression. The right to make a living and a home for ones self and their family, the right to culture and if one finds it necessary religion.

For me being Gallente is to see everyone as equals, to ignore the prejudice that comes with one's race and to take each person as I find them. But to see everyone as equals means to treat everyone as equals, to honour and support the rights I believe everyone is entitled to as said above. While I may not agree with their personal choices and have the right to voice my opinion, they have the right to disagree, to choose for themselves and to be offended if necessary. Such things are a mutual exchange, I may not like what someone says, but I respect and will gladly defend their rights in saying it.

However for me the line is drawn when people overstep their rights, and use them to impede on others. Equality is lost and someone is denied the freedoms that we should all freely enjoy. Yes you have the right to freedom, but so does the man or woman next to you, and you have no right to assume your rights are greater than theirs. "Freedom" is an interesting term, especially when it comes with limits, but as much as these limits restrict you from excession they also defend you from the greed of others.


To that end I find that being Gallente is not just restrained to faithful service to the Federation and supporting ideals that have taken it wayward from the course it should be on, but to look beyond the arguments and feuds of the four Empires and support humanity, and defend it from those who seek to cause it harm.

Self determination, the right of each citizen to pursue their hopes and dreams (legally, of course) to its climax, is what I feel means to be Gallentean. Oh, and looking fabulous doing it too.

xoxo