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Predictions on "Incursion Iteration" coming in Pre-Inferno Patch
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#81 - 2012-03-25 20:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Since when is this game balanced around people dumb enough to lose pirate faction battleships to NPCs?

lol strawman arguement anyone? lol reason you can't find kill board deaths in incursions is because rats don't post to battle clinic :)

How is that a straw man argument? .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man you replaced one arguemnt about risk with another unrelated arguement
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-03-25 20:53:39 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Since when do people post deaths by rats on public killboards?

Where is this magical public killboard that shows the bhaalgorn ship death I had about a month ago in an Assault?

Since when is this game balanced around people dumb enough to lose pirate faction battleships to NPCs?



lol strawman arguement anyone? lol reason you can't find kill board deaths in incursions is because rats don't post to battle clinic :)


You are the one arguing that players are somehow risking their ships by fighting only NPCs.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#83 - 2012-03-25 20:57:09 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Since when do people post deaths by rats on public killboards?

Where is this magical public killboard that shows the bhaalgorn ship death I had about a month ago in an Assault?

Since when is this game balanced around people dumb enough to lose pirate faction battleships to NPCs?



lol strawman arguement anyone? lol reason you can't find kill board deaths in incursions is because rats don't post to battle clinic :)


You are the one arguing that players are somehow risking their ships by fighting only NPCs.


Yep & players have ships die occasionally in incursions ergo they are risking ships. 
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-03-25 20:58:33 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Since when do people post deaths by rats on public killboards?

Where is this magical public killboard that shows the bhaalgorn ship death I had about a month ago in an Assault?

Since when is this game balanced around people dumb enough to lose pirate faction battleships to NPCs?



lol strawman arguement anyone? lol reason you can't find kill board deaths in incursions is because rats don't post to battle clinic :)


You are the one arguing that players are somehow risking their ships by fighting only NPCs.


Yep & players have ships die occasionally in incursions ergo they are risking ships.


No they are being dumb. Risk, in Eve, means risk from other players.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#85 - 2012-03-25 20:59:16 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man you replaced one arguemnt about risk with another

Not so much, you claim incursions are srs bizness risk because you lost a Bhaalgorn once. I propose that the game shouldn't be balanced around people that are that bad at Eve, because for the average player losing a ship in an incursion is an extremely rare occurrence, if it ever happens at all.

And besides, pretending ship losses are a common occurrence in incursions is somewhat futile, we have all run incursions ourselves and are well aware of the fact that you are lying.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#86 - 2012-03-25 21:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Ladie Harlot wrote:

No they are being dumb. Risk, in Eve, means risk from other players.


Risk means much more than that. Look it up.

EDIT: I agree with Harlot and Simi in that the risk of losing your ship in Incursions is quite low. There are occasional bad fleets where you lose three or four ships in a row, but it is nothing compared to PvP where you undock with the expectation to lose your ship.

Katrina Oniseki
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#87 - 2012-03-25 21:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
If highsec incursions are so risky already, I'm sure nobody would mind if CCP reduced the difficulty of sites, but made the sites function like lowsec. I mean, since you're already at so much risk adding in some opportunity for PVP into highsec incursions wouldn't be a huge problem.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#88 - 2012-03-25 21:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Relatively speaking, incursions are quite risky compared to other forms of pve. Players lose several billion isk worth of ships a day in them, not counting the ones that get ganked. Comparatively, how much do you folks think is lost running missions, exploring, or mining? (again, not counting ganks...

Add to that, it's not like every incursion runner makes a consistent 120m+ all the time. You only get that with a high end blitz fleet, an un-crowded system(not common), and a good run of whatever site your fleet is set up for. I'd guess that the average is more like 70-80m/hr for the average fleet on a normal day, once you factor in contests, lack of sites, and fleet downtime/forming up. That's not a whole lot more more than a mission runner with a similarly expensive ship, which is about right, considering missions have (again, relatively) much less risk involved, can be done solo, and are always available nearby.


Vimsy Vortis wrote:
If highsec incursions are so risky already, I'm sure nobody would mind if CCP reduced the difficulty of sites, but made the sites function like lowsec. I mean, since you're already at so much risk adding in some opportunity for PVP into highsec incursions wouldn't be a huge problem.

You and everyone else here know that this wouldn't work. Apart from the huge amount of coding involved to make this possible, you can't possibly think that giving pvp gangs a way to instantly find a bunch of scrammed PVE-fit targets is a good idea...?

thhief ghabmoef
Razin
The Scope
#89 - 2012-03-25 21:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Razin
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:

No they are being dumb. Risk, in Eve, means risk from other players.


Risk means much more than that. Look it up.

You are confused. This is a discussion of game mechanics.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-03-25 21:04:28 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:

No they are being dumb. Risk, in Eve, means risk from other players.


Risk means much more than that. Look it up.

EDIT: I agree with Harlot and Simi in that the risk of losing your ship in Incursions is quite low. There are occasional bad fleets where you lose three or four ships in a row, but it is nothing compared to PvP where you undock with the expectation to lose your ship.


Losing your ship to npcs doesn't count. That just means you don't know how to play.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-03-25 21:05:43 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
If highsec incursions are so risky already, I'm sure nobody would mind if CCP reduced the difficulty of sites, but made the sites function like lowsec. I mean, since you're already at so much risk adding in some opportunity for PVP into highsec incursions wouldn't be a huge problem.


Exactly. If the Sansha are able to take over entire systems they should be able to prevent Concord from showing up.

Good idea.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#92 - 2012-03-25 21:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Relatively speaking, incursions are quite risky compared to other forms of pve.

Yes highsec incursions are much more risky than nullsec anoms, lowsec ratting and wormhole sleeper sites.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#93 - 2012-03-25 21:08:41 UTC
Level 5 missions could produce far more ISK than Incursion because you can manufacture a lavel 5 mission. Not happening in EVE though because the "risk" (pvp barrier with a buzz word) blocks the content.

Incursions are hard enough that players need to field a hundred billion ISK to do one. Add any PvP and it becomes dead zone content just like level 5 missions.

Don't "nerf" them. Either leave them alone or remove them. We need more wasted content nobody does like I need another hole in my ass.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#94 - 2012-03-25 21:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Relatively speaking, incursions are quite risky compared to other forms of pve.

Yes highsec incursions are much more risky than nullsec anoms, lowsec ratting and wormhole sleeper sites.


No, because they're in highsec. Apples to oranges, sir.

Low/Null incursions, on the other hand...those are risky. Unless you're blue to whatever alliance is controlling the area, you can pretty much forget about it. I'd say those have more risk involved than wormholes, honestly.

thhief ghabmoef
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-03-25 21:10:46 UTC
Isn't Risk a board game?

Stuff Goes here
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#96 - 2012-03-25 21:12:31 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Relatively speaking, incursions are quite risky compared to other forms of pve.

Yes highsec incursions are much more risky than nullsec anoms, lowsec ratting and wormhole sleeper sites.

The difference being of course that wormhole sleeper sites are genuinely dangerous, ratting in low sec is ridiculously dangerous and will get you about 20 million ISK an hour and null sec anomalies in NPC 0.0... well, good luck making any ISK with them.

Even SoV null sec anomalies will earn a solo pilot less isk/hour than high sec incursions. And before someone goes on about risk in sov null, yes, it does need to be made more dangerous. But at the moment it's also pretty worthless, when you can get more ISK without the hassle of building stations, logistics and sov warfare via high sec incursions.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#97 - 2012-03-25 21:16:34 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Level 5 missions could produce far more ISK than Incursion because you can manufacture a lavel 5 mission. Not happening in EVE though because the "risk" (pvp barrier with a buzz word) blocks the content.

It doesn't "block" the content, I know plenty of people who run them constantly.

Ocih wrote:
Incursions are hard enough that players need to field a hundred billion ISK to do one. Add any PvP and it becomes dead zone content just like level 5 missions.

Just like wormholes... oh wait, no, people run them too. Wormholes, unlike incursions, are genuinely dangerous and for c1-c3 you will earn pretty much the same amount of ISK.

Only with incursions you don't run out of sites and have to find another WH after a few hours.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#98 - 2012-03-25 21:31:34 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Level 5 missions could produce far more ISK than Incursion because you can manufacture a lavel 5 mission. Not happening in EVE though because the "risk" (pvp barrier with a buzz word) blocks the content.

It doesn't "block" the content, I know plenty of people who run them constantly.

Ocih wrote:
Incursions are hard enough that players need to field a hundred billion ISK to do one. Add any PvP and it becomes dead zone content just like level 5 missions.

Just like wormholes... oh wait, no, people run them too. Wormholes, unlike incursions, are genuinely dangerous and for c1-c3 you will earn pretty much the same amount of ISK.

Only with incursions you don't run out of sites and have to find another WH after a few hours.


Bullshit

"Plenty of people" is not a few dozen on a 30K login day. Nobody does them as a faucet.

Wormholes are not even close to the same thing as Incursions. Have fun finding someone in a Class 2 wormhole not because you can't scan them down once in the wormhole. The chances of youi finding that wormhole is a million to one. I can undock a T2 fit fleet from Jita and be in any incursion in an hr.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#99 - 2012-03-25 21:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Simi Kusoni wrote:
The difference being of course that wormhole sleeper sites are genuinely dangerous

You do realize that a good number of the incursion sites are harder than any of the sleeper sites...?

A TCRC alpha wave has over 13,000 incoming dps, two battleships capable of neuting any ship to zero cap in seconds, seven other ships capable of neuting a cruiser to nothing, two jammers, four RR ships, 15-20 scrammers, and a boatload of webs. It's not uncommon for even a well tanked logi to get instapopped. Add to that the fact that shooting one wrong ship will bring even more spawns....



Simi Kusoni wrote:
Only with incursions you don't run out of sites

Except...you do, in a sense. Vanguard systems are often crowded enough that there are literally no empty sites left in the system, and any that spawn instantly have 2-4 fleets warping to them. HQ and AS systems aren't so crowded, but both types have one site (True Power Provisional Headquarters and Nation Consolidation Network, respectively) that slows the fleet down to an effective 40m/hr, or even less, since people tend to lose interest and drop fleet during those, leading to lots of downtime. (NCNs especially...it's not uncommon for an assault fleet to simply disband, rather than be forced to run them)

thhief ghabmoef
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#100 - 2012-03-25 21:49:28 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Bullshit

"Plenty of people" is not a few dozen on a 30K login day. Nobody does them as a faucet.

I lived in Aridia for a little bit, there were quite a few black legion guys down there that ran them constantly, and an entire alliance (monkey circus) dedicated to camping a single system and farming the level 5s there.

I've also got a few friends that used to run them in my old alliance, I never used to run them myself but that's because I prefer the RNG element of low/null sec exploration. Plus I get bored easily, and at least if I'm going around scanning I can bookmark crap sites, then come back later and kill people in them.

Ocih wrote:
Wormholes are not even close to the same thing as Incursions. Have fun finding someone in a Class 2 wormhole not because you can't scan them down once in the wormhole. The chances of youi finding that wormhole is a million to one. I can undock a T2 fit fleet from Jita and be in any incursion in an hr.

Why would I be looking for a specific wormhole/person? You realize people don't hunt specific players, and that some people just roam through WH space looking for kills, right?

I can undock from Jita, go down to tasti and within 4-5 systems I'll have found a decent C3 WH to camp. Next person to run a site in there dies, bravo.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
The difference being of course that wormhole sleeper sites are genuinely dangerous

You do realize that a good number of the incursion sites are harder than any of the sleeper sites...?

A TCRC alpha wave has over 13,000 incoming dps, two battleships capable of neuting any ship to zero cap in seconds, seven other ships capable of neuting a cruiser to nothing, two jammers, four RR ships, 15-20 scrammers, and a boatload of webs. It's not uncommon for even a well tanked logi to get instapopped. Add to that the fact that shooting one wrong ship will bring even more spawns....

If you're in a WH and you're dying to sleepers, you're an idiot. The danger in wormholes doesn't come from NPCs, it comes from players.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]