These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Fanfest: War Declarations

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#241 - 2012-03-26 04:44:49 UTC


The main thing I have to say is this ...

if you don't have a reason to undock, these war mechanics will mean nothing other than less griefing potentially, and more chances for mercs to stop griefers (this doesn't really get exciting. More money for mercs. But griefers resort to docking until war is over.)


Without a reason to undock your ship, this really won't be INFERNO!!!

Like I said, I'd like to see actual objectives, or areas of control designated.

I'd rather see war decs that occupy a section of space as an option.


i.e. "I declare war upon you in the Sinq Laison Region" - I can shoot you on sight in Sinq Laison, and my terms are that you leave the Sinq Laison region, close your office, and so on.

To me, that makes people want to undock. It makes people say, "Well ****, if I don't fight I WILL lose something."

I understand not everyone wants to get dragged into this stuff, but this would be substantial in a way at least. Miners would get into miner wars over asteroids, and other good stuff. The issue is that war decs are reserved for griefers because that's all the system is remotely good for. If you made it utilitarian for ACTUAL war results, rather than just a racketeering system...

"Hey, you. 100m a week or we'll war dec you."

Also, this will most likely cause mega high sec alliances to form. It won't protect them from war decs, but psychologically they'll think to themselves "hey, I can make these people pay a **** load to war dec me at least!" These high sec mega alliances would probably potentially actually try and go beyond high sec eventually, since they have a reason to form under the same flag, maybe this will propel them out of High Sec.

That'd be refreshing at least.

The war dec system will accomplish 2 major things we don't see today :

Huge high sec alliances in member counts.

Increases in the small merc industry to provide for "griefer aversion" from one or two man corps that forces griefer corps to dock up from merc protection. Not exciting, but at least profitable. Increase in competition will lower costs of high sec merc services.

And of course :

Goons scamming for mercenary services to high sec corps.


Other than that. I want to see objectives and results!

Make people undock or lose something! I don't see this really being Inferno otherwise.




Where I am.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#242 - 2012-03-26 04:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#243 - 2012-03-26 05:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
You know what I'd like to see implemented into this new system?

A "protection" element for the UI. Corp A wardecs corp B and sets surrender terms on an X amount of ISK per week. If the terms are accepted, the war is nullified, and can't be re-declared as long as the protection fees are paid. If another corporation wardecs corp B, then corp A is automatically forced into the ally role, and the protection fee queue gets placed on hold, while the inability of corp A to wardec corp B again doesn't get put on hold. On top of that, corp A is forced to remain in the ally role until the new aggressors are forced to retreat, or corp A disbands.

And make fee options really extensive, like ISK, a portion of standings with NPC corporations and factions, gained security status, etc etc.

Now that's actions and consequences for ya.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#244 - 2012-03-26 05:52:00 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Amateratsu wrote:

One of the biggest issues with the current war dec system is that an agressor can basicly keep a war going indefinitely.

What is needed is a system where either side can defeat the other and force the war to end, goals or targets need to be set and when 1 side achieves those goals /targets he is declared the victor and the war ends.


Why is that an issue, let alone the "biggest issue"? You can disband your corp, then you've been defeated and the war ends. CCP seems to be coming up with an idea of surrender terms, so that one side can negotiate with the other to end the war and I would assume if the terms are accepted there can't be a resumption of hostilities for a period of time. So essentially there is already and will be more ways for a war to end.



Its an issue for the very reasons you've just stated, forcing the defending corp to dispand or give up all their assets in payment for surrender terms. which is why the system gets abused so much to attack corps / players who have no way of defending themselfs against an attacker.

Then you cry on the forums when the defender finds ways to avoid / get out of a wars using dec shield and so on.

Wars need to be a two way engagement where either side (both the defending corp and the attacking corp) can defeat the other side and force the war to a close.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#245 - 2012-03-26 06:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Amateratsu wrote:

Its an issue for the very reasons you've just stated, forcing the defending corp to dispand or give up all their assets in payment for surrender terms. which is why the system gets abused so much to attack corps / players who have no way of defending themselfs against an attacker.

Then you cry on the forums when the defender finds ways to avoid / get out of a wars using dec shield and so on.

Wars need to be a two way engagement where either side (both the defending corp and the attacking corp) can defeat the other side and force the war to a close.


Under the new proposed system I don't think attackers can withdraw from the war if the defenders don't wish them to do so, plus the defenders can bring in an ally to help fight at no additional wardec cost. So, in fact things are very much stacked in favor of the defender if they're prepared for the eventuality of war.

The tools are all there for wardeced corps to hit back at an aggressor and make them regret declaring war. The problem is some people are basically looking for a PvP flag they can switch off and for the game mechanics to automatically defend them securing their safety, and that really doesn't belong in a game like EVE.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#246 - 2012-03-26 06:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Various mercenaries and hisec experts have expressed concern with the current model for war fees increasing based on the number of members in the defending corporation.

Fears of the formation of a kind of hisec super-alliance, joinable by every player who does not want to be vulnerable to wars were expressed. Such an entity could conceivably exceed 15,000 members without great difficulty; this would incur war fees of many billions of isk.

I believe that the scaling of cost for each additional member of the defending corporation should decrease as the number of members increases, by 2,000 ISK per member until the cost for each additional member is 100,000 ISK. This would mean:

A war against a 1 man corp costs 0 ISK extra
A war against a 20-odd man corp costs ~10M ISK extra
A war against a 50 man corp costs ~20M ISK extra
A war against a 100 man corp costs ~40M ISK extra
A war against a 200 man corp costs ~60M ISK extra
A war against a 400 man corp costs ~80M ISK extra

and every thousand members after that only incur 100 million ISK in charges, rather than half a billion isk.

These parameters can be adjusted (copy this spreadsheet to play around with it and see how that would work), but I very much like the idea of a curved scale and think it could prevent a lot of unnecessary drama and war avoidance in hisec.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Iggep
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#247 - 2012-03-26 06:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Iggep
............. you have got to be kidding me.... I typed a huge reply to a specific post and not one word posted...... meh!!!

http://www.iggepsrealm.com - the ramblings of a spaceship driving techophile
Iggep
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#248 - 2012-03-26 07:00:45 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Amateratsu wrote:

Its an issue for the very reasons you've just stated, forcing the defending corp to dispand or give up all their assets in payment for surrender terms. which is why the system gets abused so much to attack corps / players who have no way of defending themselfs against an attacker.

Then you cry on the forums when the defender finds ways to avoid / get out of a wars using dec shield and so on.

Wars need to be a two way engagement where either side (both the defending corp and the attacking corp) can defeat the other side and force the war to a close.


Under the new proposed system I don't think attackers can withdraw from the war if the defenders don't wish them to do so, plus the defenders can bring in an ally to help fight at no additional wardec cost. So, in fact things are very much stacked in favor of the defender if they're prepared for the eventuality of war.

The tools are all there for wardeced corps to hit back at an aggressor and make them regret declaring war. The problem is some people are basically looking for a PvP flag they can switch off and for the game mechanics to automatically defend them securing their safety, and that really doesn't belong in a game like EVE.


That is entirely "on paper". Perhaps that is the case with mid to large corps, but certainly not for the random small corp. Is a 4-5 man indy corp going to be able to afford mercs? The reality is that small corps are going to rip down any POS they might have and will likely disband. People who do not want to be subjected to harassment will hug NPC corps and we have quite enough of that now. PVP corps that want to fight aren't going to be able to fight those small indy corps they so desperately want to fight now... those corps will just disappear and the players will either play in NPC corps or will leave EVE all together. If they wanted to PVP they would have been doing it already. Mid to Larger corps are a different matter and I'm not so concerned about them. Its the smaller corps I have great concerns about in this "revamp".

http://www.iggepsrealm.com - the ramblings of a spaceship driving techophile
Iggep
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#249 - 2012-03-26 07:07:40 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."


I think the point you might be missing in all this is that you do not play in a vacuum. You seem to want everyone to accept the game on your terms. I'm not saying I disagree with your terms, or that I don't. In the end what CCP needs to be painfully aware of is that there will be real consequences for them (and for you) if they muck this up and make things too painful for those who don't really see the same value in PVP as you seem to.

The fact is there is plenty of PVP to be had. People who are interested in PVP just aren't seeking it out for whatever reason. Risk for others has (or should have) nothing to do with it, what so ever.

http://www.iggepsrealm.com - the ramblings of a spaceship driving techophile
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#250 - 2012-03-26 07:13:40 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:

Fears of the formation of a kind of hisec super-alliance, joinable by every player who does not want to be vulnerable to wars were expressed. Such an entity could conceivably exceed 15,000 members without great difficulty; this would incur war fees of many billions of isk.


This should be a concern of all independent minded, small, medium sized High Sec Industrial corporations, and players as well. For under this system a disproportional amount of hostilities will fall on them while large Null Sec power block affiliated players and those belonging to organizations like EVE Uni will be largely immune from Wardecs and thus have a competitive advantage. While numbers and organization should give added advantage it shouldn't offer such huge one as near immunity to Wardecs.

Your solution seems a good reasonable one Widdershins. I still think one based on the numbers in the Wardecers corp could also work. Either would be preferable to the current one.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#251 - 2012-03-26 07:21:27 UTC
Iggep wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."


I think the point you might be missing in all this is that you do not play in a vacuum. You seem to want everyone to accept the game on your terms. I'm not saying I disagree with your terms, or that I don't. In the end what CCP needs to be painfully aware of is that there will be real consequences for them (and for you) if they muck this up and make things too painful for those who don't really see the same value in PVP as you seem to.

The fact is there is plenty of PVP to be had. People who are interested in PVP just aren't seeking it out for whatever reason. Risk for others has (or should have) nothing to do with it, what so ever.

If they don't like my terms, they're more than welcome to attempt to force their own terms on me. Heck, they don't even need to be interested in pvp to do so; just hire people to stamp down on the aggressors by employing the might of their industrial profits. But the thing is, they don't want to do that either. In these peoples' minds, money exists for the sole purpose of padding their own wallets. They feel that they shouldn't have to spend anything to increase their own opportunities. They feel that they shouldn't have to accept risks in order to reap increased rewards. And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.

The problem isn't that these people don't want to kill other people with violence; the problem is that they want gratification in a competitive environment without putting anything on the line.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Iggep
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2012-03-26 07:55:20 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Iggep wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."


I think the point you might be missing in all this is that you do not play in a vacuum. You seem to want everyone to accept the game on your terms. I'm not saying I disagree with your terms, or that I don't. In the end what CCP needs to be painfully aware of is that there will be real consequences for them (and for you) if they muck this up and make things too painful for those who don't really see the same value in PVP as you seem to.

The fact is there is plenty of PVP to be had. People who are interested in PVP just aren't seeking it out for whatever reason. Risk for others has (or should have) nothing to do with it, what so ever.

If they don't like my terms, they're more than welcome to attempt to force their own terms on me. Heck, they don't even need to be interested in pvp to do so; just hire people to stamp down on the aggressors by employing the might of their industrial profits. But the thing is, they don't want to do that either. In these peoples' minds, money exists for the sole purpose of padding their own wallets. They feel that they shouldn't have to spend anything to increase their own opportunities. They feel that they shouldn't have to accept risks in order to reap increased rewards. And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.

The problem isn't that these people don't want to kill other people with violence; the problem is that they want gratification in a competitive environment without putting anything on the line.


Whining goes on from both sides. I have a rather limited perspective in EVE, whereas perhaps you do not. Or do, I don't know. What I do know is that I've never been one personally to purposefully ruin the game play of someone else. its just not the type of person I am. Others playing EVE are that type of person, and while I'm quite sure they could care less what I feel about that, I'm quite sure those kinds of people end up getting what they deserve in other ways.

I do not disagree with you that risk needs to remain in high sec. I do disagree with any system that does not ensure small random players are not preyed upon as I'm sure you know happens all to often now. "PVP" corps wardeccing small indy corps isn't about PVP. Its about harassment, and I don't see that as a legitimate play style.

http://www.iggepsrealm.com - the ramblings of a spaceship driving techophile
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#253 - 2012-03-26 08:21:54 UTC
Iggep wrote:
What I do know is that I've never been one personally to purposefully ruin the game play of someone else. its just not the type of person I am. Others playing EVE are that type of person, and while I'm quite sure they could care less what I feel about that, I'm quite sure those kinds of people end up getting what they deserve in other ways.
I'm curious, do you consider non-consensual PvP in a game that both fosters non-con PvP and touts it as a selling point to be ruining the game play of somebody else?
Lexmana
#254 - 2012-03-26 08:49:51 UTC
Iggep wrote:
I do not disagree with you that risk needs to remain in high sec. I do disagree with any system that does not ensure small random players are not preyed upon as I'm sure you know happens all to often now. "PVP" corps wardeccing small indy corps isn't about PVP. Its about harassment, and I don't see that as a legitimate play style.


It is very simple really. Small random players (sic) should stay in a NPC corp until they feel they want to take their chances to increase their profits by joining or starting a small player corp and when they do they have obligations to start defending their property. That is the risk and price they have to pay to reep the benefits from being in a player corp. It was very clear in the Fanfest presentation and it all makes perfect sense.

The rest was eloquently put by Destiny:

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
In these peoples' minds, money exists for the sole purpose of padding their own wallets. They feel that they shouldn't have to spend anything to increase their own opportunities. They feel that they shouldn't have to accept risks in order to reap increased rewards. And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#255 - 2012-03-26 09:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."


As I said before, you assume that because I write something that must necessarily apply to me and certainly be against you.

I have done my stuff for years and have been -9 sec so keep your carebear adjectives for somebody else.

Let's say that I'd prefer completely removing hi sec from the game than this farce we have now.

Then I will see where all those hi seccers "PvPers" will go to hide.

-----------



I just don't find the new system to go together with their "POS "lite" for everyone" plans nor the player supplied station services (if they rely on a POS or similar).

I have yet to see a decent explanation why Average Joe (the obvious target of the feature) would want to setup a restricted POS Lite, knowing he'll just get racketed or nuked to oblivion with no recourse.

Try tell me.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#256 - 2012-03-26 09:25:25 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

It is very simple really. Small random players (sic) should stay in a NPC corp until they feel they want to take their chances to increase their profits by joining or starting a small player corp and when they do they have obligations to start defending their property. That is the risk and price they have to pay to reep the benefits from being in a player corp. It was very clear in the Fanfest presentation and it all makes perfect sense.


It was very clear they wanted to spread the usage of certain new and old features.
Not sure how well it'll go with a "hey new player you pay $15 but not to play. You pay it just to spin your rookie ship until you feel like joining the though guys with a bat".
It will attract new players as much as Incarna did.


Destiny Corrupted wrote:

And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.


The changes are going in because of YOUR whining. The others outsmarted the system and invented dec shields and the hi sec PvP CAREBEARS (notice how they are the SAME and lame substance of the non PvP CAREBEARS, i.e. stay tight in hi sec like a pu$sy) went to cry on the forums.


Destiny Corrupted wrote:

The problem isn't that these people don't want to kill other people with violence; the problem is that they want gratification in a competitive environment without putting anything on the line.


Instant gratification is to create a catalyst alt and endure such though 2M ship purchase.

Not having invested 20B in BPOs, spent 1 year researching them, then more money in structures and continuous logistics.

Somebody thinks in reverse.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#257 - 2012-03-26 09:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Hey Vaerah, for every POS you take down because we rub your ass raw, we're going to put up our own to take advantage of the market externality you created. And we're going to defend it properly so that no one else will be to one-up us without a massive effort that will cost them more than it will cost us.

So yeah, the system works fine. You simply want something for nothing, and aren't getting it. What do all the carebears say when they interpret a game play mechanic change as something that will finally take the 'v' out of "pvp" and think that the people who spent a decade extracting money from others won't adapt to it? Oh, right, "htfu."


As I said before, you assume that because I write something that must necessarily apply to me and certainly be against you.

I have done my stuff for years and have been -9 sec so keep your carebear adjectives for somebody else.


I just don't find the new system to go together with their "POS "lite" for everyone" plans nor the player supplied station services (if they rely on a POS or similar).

I have yet to see a decent explanation why Average Joe (the obvious target of the feature) would want to setup a restricted POS Lite, knowing he'll just get racketed or nuked to oblivion with no recourse.

Try tell me.

1. I meant "you" in a general way, as is common when making an argument. Sometimes things get lost in translation because forums don't exactly conduct body language and intonation. So by "your POS" I meant the POSes of people who want to run them without risk.

2. It's a POS "lite," which entails two things: it's going to be easier to manage, and it will be cheaper to run. Those two things are offset by increased weakness to attack. I think it's a rational tradeoff. As is, it's already possible to set up a high-sec POS in such a manner that it would take an extremely large amount of people to take it down with a reasonable amount of effort. It's possible to defend a POS so well, that it's simply not cost-efficient to attack it. In fact, as someone actively involved in the mercenary industry, I can tell you for a fact that live high-sec POS sieges are pretty goddamn rare. Most outfits charge billions to siege a large defended tower. Even an abandoned POS siege would have a price tag of a few hundred million.

But yeah, you know what? If we see an undefended tower with sixteen labs, a bunch of large assembly arrays, and no guns or hardeners, that thing is going down. For free.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.


The changes are going in because of YOUR whining. The others outsmarted the system and invented dec shields and the hi sec PvP CAREBEARS (notice how they are the SAME and lame substance of the non PvP CAREBEARS, i.e. stay tight in hi sec like a pu$sy) went to cry on the forums.

Uh, just so you know, dec shield was both invented by "griefers," and is being run by someone who is the exact opposite of a carebear. It was done by the "griefer" community to preempt the high-sec safety bears, and is currently being run in such a manner that its effects are having an overwhelming impact on CCP's perception of high-sec war. Which is why the announced war changes are so damn good (except the pricing structure, but we're working on that).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Victoria Sefica
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2012-03-26 09:43:24 UTC
Quote:
The problem isn't that these people don't want to kill other people with violence; the problem is that they want gratification in a competitive environment without putting anything on the line.


Have you actually tried competing in the market so that you know that industrials (again, I am emphasizing small newbie/starter corps which will become target of choice for grievers post patch) are printing Isk in their PoSes? Because, I can tell you, although me and few buddies make decent ISK with our industrial operation, I can make much more, with much less commitment with PvE char. I do industry because I like the concept (and I'm a slight masochist, anyone has to be to manage a pos with current UI) not because it's making me filthy rich. There is a risk to that side of Eve as it is, without PvP being forced onto it.

Furthermore, if you think its' such a lucrative area w/o risks, why don't you try it for yourself. I'm sure that your obvious knowledge on the subject of supply/demand dynamics, market speculation and play and what not will have your PvP char flying nothing but Maccariels in no time. You guys are so narrow minded, since you fail to see that war can be fought on so many levels and not necessarily by shooting one in the face. Furthermore, as a newb PvP you have so many ways to control the extent of risk you are put to - you can do 1v1 can flips in hisec, join RvB and then when you're ready you can go to low/nullsec and fight the good fights. However as a starter industrialist there is no way you can commit do some things ( t2 production in particular) w/o PoS and there is no way in hell anyone will want to bring up a small pos in hisec after this, since it will be like throwing a piece of meat to hungry dogs, hoping they won't notice it. Unless there is a radical, and I mean radical change in availability of public copy/research slots, this will be the end of small industrial corps. I bet that will have a really positive impact on t2 market as well, as all oligopolies have.

To re-iterate what the CCP guy said during his presentation - hi-sec wars atm are fought for two reasons only: griefing and consensual PvP (read: RvB). Whomever says that the proposed changes are going to make any difference in that is either very naive or a griefer loathing at the newly opened world of easy pickings. Hopefully they will make some changes to the whole system before s*** hits the fan.
Oh, and Eve-U, good job on getting your costs for Dec Shielding cut down by CCP, while at the same time you make yourself the corp of choice for desperate newbie looking for a safe haven. Good job indeed.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#259 - 2012-03-26 09:51:19 UTC
Uh, no, I never brought POSes into the conversation; Vaerah did. All I said was that risk should apply to POS-related industrial activities like everything else. Then I told him/her that he/she is trying to find a problem where a problem doesn't exist. I will say it again: a properly-managed POS makes a takedown attempt extremely inefficient (and boring to boot). Now, if you want to perform your POS activities from a small, undefended tower, that's your choice. Just don't cry when it doesn't last a week.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#260 - 2012-03-26 09:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

2. It's a POS "lite," which entails two things: it's going to be easier to manage, and it will be cheaper to run. Those two things are offset by increased weakness to attack. I think it's a rational tradeoff.


It's rational only if they allow research to resume after the war ends. Else even if the POS is cheaper and easier, you still get 80M damage per slot and up to 33 lost days per BPO, which is the real damage.


Destiny Corrupted wrote:

And so, whenever they get put in a vice, instead of using whatever play styles and competencies they possess in order to win conflicts, they whine to the developers and demand changes be made to the game on their behalf.


Uh, just so you know, dec shield was both invented by "griefers," and is being run by someone who is the exact opposite of a carebear. It was done by the "griefer" community to preempt the high-sec safety bears, and is currently being run in such a manner that its effects are having an overwhelming impact on CCP's perception of high-sec war. Which is why the announced war changes are so damn good (except the pricing structure, but we're working on that).


So, not only it was "griefers" (you call them griefers BTW, I don't) who went to the forums but also exploited the system to ransom CCP into changing it? Good stuff Cool


BTW an interesting anecdote.
Today a guy got his Hulk popped by a now "just one in a million" guy using alt at belt to warp in -10 sec alts from cloaky Orca, do the gank, go back to Orca, circumvent Concord.

The Hulk guy promptly took off with a Recon to go take vengeance and...

... the other guy immediately moved all to NPC corp, docked in station some of his -10 alts, the Orca is neatly somewhere but can't be scanned.


That's the "PvP thoughness" and "act with consquences" they have to deal with.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials