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Missiles not equal Bombardment.

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None ofthe Above
#1 - 2012-03-24 05:34:39 UTC
One of the several things that is bothering me about the ship rebalancing plans is the equating of Missiles to some other class of ship than Attack or Combat.

Missiles are a weapons system, they have short and long range variants. They have a few unique characteristics but all the weapons systems do.

I don't understand why missile boat means it has to be a long range bombardment ship with a certain armor/speed/damage characteristics.

That's like saying anything that uses Hybrids should be slow brawlers or fast kiters. They really need both options. There should be Attack and Combat missile ships, I don't know that it should be a separate ship line.

I do kind of get this point when you talk about non-Caldari ships where missiles are the optional second weapons system. But not on Caldari where they are the primary (see Career tutorial if you want to dispute this).

Perhaps there could be a class of ships that focus on the long range weapons (beam, arty, rail and the longer range missiles), sniper/bombardment ships. But with the module design, not sure that's even necessary. Talos was designed as a Blaster boat for example, but actually turns out to be a fine kiter with rails.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-03-24 10:23:14 UTC
Indeed it is pretty silly to just swipe every caldari dps ship under 'bombardment' carpet.
Also I see no reason to have hybrid ships in caldari shipyard, if we could convert Rokh to missiles ship we'd finally get a battleship with 8 launchers.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-03-24 10:32:02 UTC
I love how half the missile boats in the game are:

1. Slow
2. Paper-Thin
3. **** DPS
4. Delayed DPS
5. Unfittable due to crazy CPU requirements for BCUs and launchers.

I'm trying to find the strengths of ships like the Caracal, Breacher, Standard Missile Merlin, etc.

Their only strength is conceivably that they have long range.... so what? Outside 24km you can't pin your target down anyways, and inside 24km, with your **** speed and tank you're not going to win that engagement.

The only good missileboats are the Caldari Navy Raven and Drake. The CNR is only good because it's training wheels for missions (not having to worry about transversal like with artillery). The Drake is going to get nerfed.

CCP needs to have missiles just step in line with the other ships.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Gedid Tava
Alpha Galactic Group
#4 - 2012-03-24 10:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gedid Tava
Dessies and BCs getting racial skill reqs.
Talk of Missile boats being role-swapped to bombardment.

It'd be interesting if CCP is planning on actually making each race play differently and truly reward specialization.
Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-03-24 10:35:23 UTC
Aranakas wrote:

CCP needs to have missiles just step in line with the other ships.

You should definetely look forward to EVE Hellfire, summer 2015 expansion wich will feature missile rebalancing! Lol
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2012-03-24 10:48:38 UTC
Missiles are a unique weapon system with their own problems and advantages; mainly due to their delayed damage application, long range next to turrets and particular explosion velocity mechanics. Their also mandate specific attributes on ships using them, which is why missiles ships are sorted as part of another line.

Also, saying that hybrid turrets have no place in Caldari ships is like saying that hybrids don't belong with Gallente P Of course, since missile ships like the Drake, Caracal, Raven are the ones with the most perceived value for Caldari pilots at the moment, no one can be blamed for making such an assumption.

However, in practice, to be an accomplished Caldari pilot, one has to train missile, hybrid and ECM skills, just like Gallente have to train drone, hybrids and sensor dampening skills.

We want to make the less used Caldari hybrid ships (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) good at what they are supposed to be doing - that most likely means having a look at their slot layout, bonuses, removing the weird hybrid/missile weapon system they have for an all turret setup. Ideally, we want them to be on the same line as the Naga. Again, more details will follow when we actually start looking at them.

Tiericide and ship lines help us achieve that goal as it suddenly makes it a lot easier for us to balance ships for what they are supposed to be doing, roles, instead of an arbitrary value inside their own class.


Hope that helps a bit Blink
Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-03-24 11:04:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hope that helps a bit Blink

So you're saying that we should train winmatar?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#8 - 2012-03-24 11:08:12 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
So you're saying that we should train winmatar?


Only this month. Don't take your eye off the forums, or you'll miss April's FOTM.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Adunh Slavy
#9 - 2012-03-24 11:12:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Hope that helps a bit Blink


Perhaps what missles need is significantly higher flight velocity and equally less flight duration. Not sure this matters so much for torps, rockets and HAMs.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Gedid Tava
Alpha Galactic Group
#10 - 2012-03-24 11:14:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
removing the weird hybrid/missile weapon system


Deaaaath. Deaaaaaath to unbonused split systems.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#11 - 2012-03-24 11:26:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Missiles are a unique weapon system with their own problems and advantages; mainly due to their delayed damage application, long range next to turrets and particular explosion velocity mechanics. Their also mandate specific attributes on ships using them, which is why missiles ships are sorted as part of another line.

Also, saying that hybrid turrets have no place in Caldari ships is like saying that hybrids don't belong with Gallente P Of course, since missile ships like the Drake, Caracal, Raven are the ones with the most perceived value for Caldari pilots at the moment, no one can be blamed for making such an assumption.

However, in practice, to be an accomplished Caldari pilot, one has to train missile, hybrid and ECM skills, just like Gallente have to train drone, hybrids and sensor dampening skills.

We want to make the less used Caldari hybrid ships (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) good at what they are supposed to be doing - that most likely means having a look at their slot layout, bonuses, removing the weird hybrid/missile weapon system they have for an all turret setup. Ideally, we want them to be on the same line as the Naga. Again, more details will follow when we actually start looking at them.

Tiericide and ship lines help us achieve that goal as it suddenly makes it a lot easier for us to balance ships for what they are supposed to be doing, roles, instead of an arbitrary value inside their own class.


Hope that helps a bit Blink



I'm in complete support of a ship re-balance, it's long over due to scrap the whole tier system. However the tier system isn't the only reason some ships are very popular. Some ships like the Hurricane and Drake are good because they can be used for a wide range of tactics & set ups.

Lets hope you don't cause a problem of ships becoming useless due to being stuck in a worthless role instead of a useless tier system.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-03-24 11:56:03 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hope that helps a bit Blink

So you're saying that we should train winmatar?


No, he's saying that you should cross-train to all races and weapon systems to become nerf-proof.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-03-24 12:30:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


However, in practice, to be an accomplished Caldari pilot, one has to train missile, hybrid and ECM skills, just like Gallente have to train drone, hybrids and sensor dampening skills.


PWAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dodixie > Hek
Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-03-24 12:35:27 UTC

Everyday I'm dampenin'
Dampenin', dampenin'
adopt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-03-24 12:41:13 UTC
Drakes have 110k EHP when fit correctly and apply DPS to 80km. I see how this has hurt you.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-03-24 12:50:35 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Some ships like the Hurricane and Drake are good because they can be used for a wide range of tactics & set ups.

Lets hope you don't cause a problem of ships becoming useless due to being stuck in a worthless role instead of a useless tier system.


Well, this is a main problem. For example tier 1 BCs are currently pretty much useless because tier 2 BCs do everything better.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-03-24 13:32:01 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Some ships like the Hurricane and Drake are good because they can be used for a wide range of tactics & set ups.

Lets hope you don't cause a problem of ships becoming useless due to being stuck in a worthless role instead of a useless tier system.


Well, this is a main problem. For example tier 1 BCs are currently pretty much useless because tier 2 BCs do everything better.


Cruisers too, generally speaking.
Spectre80
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-03-24 13:36:35 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Missiles are a unique weapon system with their own problems and advantages; mainly due to their delayed damage application, long range next to turrets and particular explosion velocity mechanics. Their also mandate specific attributes on ships using them, which is why missiles ships are sorted as part of another line.

Also, saying that hybrid turrets have no place in Caldari ships is like saying that hybrids don't belong with Gallente P Of course, since missile ships like the Drake, Caracal, Raven are the ones with the most perceived value for Caldari pilots at the moment, no one can be blamed for making such an assumption.

However, in practice, to be an accomplished Caldari pilot, one has to train missile, hybrid and ECM skills, just like Gallente have to train drone, hybrids and sensor dampening skills.

We want to make the less used Caldari hybrid ships (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) good at what they are supposed to be doing - that most likely means having a look at their slot layout, bonuses, removing the weird hybrid/missile weapon system they have for an all turret setup. Ideally, we want them to be on the same line as the Naga. Again, more details will follow when we actually start looking at them.

Tiericide and ship lines help us achieve that goal as it suddenly makes it a lot easier for us to balance ships for what they are supposed to be doing, roles, instead of an arbitrary value inside their own class.


Hope that helps a bit Blink


dude. caldari in most part are really bad in pvp compared to amarr or minmatar. gallente sucks bad too. i hava all races crosstrained and as caldari and gallente sometimes has its uses most of the time most used ships are minmatar and amarr...
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#19 - 2012-03-24 14:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Some ships like the Hurricane and Drake are good because they can be used for a wide range of tactics & set ups.

Lets hope you don't cause a problem of ships becoming useless due to being stuck in a worthless role instead of a useless tier system.


Well, this is a main problem. For example tier 1 BCs are currently pretty much useless because tier 2 BCs do everything better.


Not in all cases. Example In a 1 vs 1 fight between a Cyclone & a Hurricane, I'd always prefer to be in the Cyclone. On the other hand the Cyclone typically isn't that great of a Solo roaming BC as the Hurricane is much better in that aspect.

Then the Myrm & Brutix.. The Myrm is a very nice solo ship, but not the best for gangs making the Brutix a much better option for a gang ship. Same thing with Vexor & Thorax.. I personally prefer the Vexor over the Thoax for soloing, but Thorax is a better gang ship.

Meaning there are still a lot of lower tier ships that are useful, but it's normally the exception vs the rule. I was just warning that heavy focus on roles could end up with the same issues with many ships being deemed useless due to their roles not fitting well with game play or being too tied into a specific role.
None ofthe Above
#20 - 2012-03-24 15:32:28 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Missiles are a unique weapon system with their own problems and advantages; mainly due to their delayed damage application, long range next to turrets and particular explosion velocity mechanics. Their also mandate specific attributes on ships using them, which is why missiles ships are sorted as part of another line.

Also, saying that hybrid turrets have no place in Caldari ships is like saying that hybrids don't belong with Gallente P Of course, since missile ships like the Drake, Caracal, Raven are the ones with the most perceived value for Caldari pilots at the moment, no one can be blamed for making such an assumption.

However, in practice, to be an accomplished Caldari pilot, one has to train missile, hybrid and ECM skills, just like Gallente have to train drone, hybrids and sensor dampening skills.

We want to make the less used Caldari hybrid ships (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) good at what they are supposed to be doing - that most likely means having a look at their slot layout, bonuses, removing the weird hybrid/missile weapon system they have for an all turret setup. Ideally, we want them to be on the same line as the Naga. Again, more details will follow when we actually start looking at them.

Tiericide and ship lines help us achieve that goal as it suddenly makes it a lot easier for us to balance ships for what they are supposed to be doing, roles, instead of an arbitrary value inside their own class.


Hope that helps a bit Blink


Well yes and no. I completely agree as far as boosting the lesser used ships (although I know a lot of people that fly merlins).

I don't argue that hybrids and ECM aren't part of the Caldari racial profile, just that Missiles are the primary weapon. Making a ship line around Missiles makes me wonder why we aren't making one around Lasers.

Tiercide seems like a great idea. Although I think my philosophy around that might be different than yours. I'd be looking to fix broken ships, leaving working ships alone. You on the other hand seem intent on redesigning all the things, which I find alarming. If that goes wrong, that breaks the #1 asset of EVE.

And on top of that, I don't think all missile boats should be thought of as the same type of creature. Kestrels are very different from Ravens. The role of Manticores is hugely differently from Drakes.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
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