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RR Changes
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Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-03-23 17:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Skex Relbore
Terminal Insanity wrote:


No. Cost doesnt matter. Logi's arnt THAT expensive anyways. They might be more then a rifter or dictor but they arnt significantly more expensive to require their own set of rules

The real reason people are scared of this change is they wont be able to undock their carriers for reps without losing it to PL drops

Your logistics ships should absolutely not be able to dock or jump gates after providing assistance. They should inherit the jump/dock timers from the people they repair. As stated, logistics/ecm are 'force multipliers' aka they massively increase your fleet's abilities. Currently they do that for free with no risk. Thats stupid

Quote:
Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all?

YES. Currently, logistics teams can endlessly repair you and take absolutely no risks doing it. They can keep one person alive forever and never risk their own ships. Thats stupid

Also, logistics are abused as 'scouts'. When an FC isnt sure about the other side of the gate, he sends in the logi's because they can just repair eachother and jump back through the gate. Thats stupid.


First of course cost matters it's part of the risk calculation that determines whether someone will be willing to engage you.

Also why "should" Logi be required to inherit the aggression timer of the ships they are reppping other than your personal sense of fair play?

Claiming there is no risk is stupid, low risk is not the same as no risk. Every action has a risk calculation involved and that calculation helps to determine the choices people make

Yes it's possible to set up a situation where it is extremely hard to kill a single ship due to logi being able to dock up instantly but 10 maelstroms can easily counter that by insta poping those logis

The difference? Under the current situation you'll get the opportunity to kill those logis if you are prepared and smart about it. Under the new rules you'd never get that opportunity because people would be much less likely to engage you in those circumstances

By eliminating special capabilities such the lack of aggression timers allowing logi's to rep and dock up instantly you reduce the number of tactical options and reduce the variety and volume of combat opportunities.

In the end all the whines about logis and aggression just come down to short sighted e-bushido nonsense anyway. You don't think it's fair that someone else took advantage of a game mechanic to beat you when you believe you were entitled to victory. You think it's cheating you, even though those exact same options are available for your use.

Seriously if you want honor fights at noon join RVB that's what they do and I can personally attest that it's great fun with a cool bunch of pilots. But elsewhere it's nice to have some variety in options.

The ability of Logi ships to dock and gate jump instantly are variables that not only provide additional variety to game play they encourage people to engage in situations they wouldn't normally do so in.

So what if they can set up a situation where they can sit on undock and you can't kill them? You aren't automatically entitled to a kill just because you have more numbers/dps, they just managed to out smart you, disengage and find a new target or work out a way to counter them.

Logi are far from invulnerable, they are destroyed all the damned time. Are there situations where it's really hard to kill them? Sure, but the same can be said for a lot of other ships and circumstances in this game.

There are plenty of downsides to flying logistics to balance out their advantages, they are priority targets, people who fly them typically give up the glory of getting on killmails (unless they whore on with a drone or some offensive module in which case the discussion would be moot since they'd have their own damned session timer) they are pricey with poor insurance payouts and require relatively high levels of SP to use effectively.

The simple fact is this beyond any unintended consequences that may be the result of this change one thing is certain, people will be less inclined to engage on gates and stations. People do not generally engage in PVP in this game by choice unless they think they have a chance of survival and potential victory. That FC docked up in a station or sitting on a gate will be far less likely to even attempt to engage you if their loss of logi becomes a near certainty.

So instead of you being frustrated by unbreakable logi chains you'll be frustrated by a lack of potential targets

Result more blue balls and fewer fire balls.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2012-03-23 17:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Skex Relbore wrote:
So instead of you being frustrated by unbreakable logi chains you'll be frustrated by a lack of potential targets

Lemme get this right.

If they stop logis from being able to dock immediately.... I'll suffer because your gang of neutral scimitars will be too scared to repair you?

lol.


Also, if cost matters, i want my triage carrier to be able to jump while in triage and have it immute to ewar as well. My carrier costs 1.6 bil, your logi only costs 200. I'm risking a lot more then you so i should have more opportunities to run away

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#63 - 2012-03-23 17:57:01 UTC
Adapt or die, isn't that the mantra?

If your logis are holding out and repping until someone can jump, then they'll be able to jump at the same time as their target. I fail to see the problem here. It's *at most* a 60 second timer unless they're supporting ships that are still actively shooting.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-03-23 18:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Skex Relbore wrote:
Alright so I've not been able to find a lot of details on this proposed change save a brief mention in the crime watch thread but in all the cheering over the doom of Neutral RR has anyone taken the time to consider the effects the addition of an aggression timer would have on legitimate uses of logistics?

In Null and low sec Neutral RR isn't a problem particularly null, you can proactively shoot who ever the hell you want to. So those of us who live outside of high sec are not affected by Neutral RR and never have been.

But the proposed change absent some sort of carve out for low and null sec will result in a serious nerf to the capabilities of Logistics ships and any other targeted boosting ships. Because while adding aggression to remote assistance will indeed stop a neutral logistics ship to not be able to dock in high sec it will also stop a friendly logi from jumping after covering their fleets retreat on a null/low sec gate.

The problem with adding aggression timers to neutral RR is that you end up adding aggression timers to in corp RR as well. So not only do you end up affecting neutral RR you end up screwing over all RR.

So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.


Get that character and join it into an alliance or go cry baby. Problem solved!
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-03-23 18:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
The whole thing should be solved as simple as possible.

Using a module that affects another player should prevent the user from docking or jumping for X amount of time, doesn't matter whether it's repairing, boosting, ewar or shooting
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2012-03-23 18:41:33 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Alright so I've not been able to find a lot of details on this proposed change save a brief mention in the crime watch thread but in all the cheering over the doom of Neutral RR has anyone taken the time to consider the effects the addition of an aggression timer would have on legitimate uses of logistics?

In Null and low sec Neutral RR isn't a problem particularly null, you can proactively shoot who ever the hell you want to. So those of us who live outside of high sec are not affected by Neutral RR and never have been.

But the proposed change absent some sort of carve out for low and null sec will result in a serious nerf to the capabilities of Logistics ships and any other targeted boosting ships. Because while adding aggression to remote assistance will indeed stop a neutral logistics ship to not be able to dock in high sec it will also stop a friendly logi from jumping after covering their fleets retreat on a null/low sec gate.

The problem with adding aggression timers to neutral RR is that you end up adding aggression timers to in corp RR as well. So not only do you end up affecting neutral RR you end up screwing over all RR.

So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.


Yes, it means that finally station and gate games are going to have consequences, seems like a good addition to the game to everybody else.

The ability to engage without consequence needs to go.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2012-03-23 18:46:55 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
You don't think it's fair that someone else took advantage of a game mechanic to beat you when you believe you were entitled to victory. You think it's cheating you, even though those exact same options are available for your use.


Right, tell that to titan pilots, tell that to Garmon and his jump freighter killing service, or 1000 other 'intended game mechanics" that have been changed due to unintended consequences.


Logis being virtually invincible on stations, carriers being used to undock on a station for station games, has long been stated by the GAME COMPANY YOU PLAY FOR, as something they don't like.

The players don't like it, the company that makes the game don't like it, and well, I guess if you don't like the way the games headed you know what to do about it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Roxwar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-03-23 18:53:13 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.

Its kinda silly to have a shitton of people (neutral OR any other color) in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars

If the logi is going to provide assistance to the battle, he should be committed to that battle just like the people he's assisting.

Not empty quoting for effect.


Short of it is, all you war deccing tards that RR in your leet high sec battles, only for your nuet flying doctors to immediately warp off/dock when red boxed is getting fixed, as overdue as it is.

You want to RR yourself with your alt cos you picked a fight with the wrong carebear? Sure, just consider your RR to be lost too due to mechanics that will be WORKING AS INTENDED.

Trololololololol
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
#69 - 2012-03-23 19:00:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.

Its kinda silly to have a shitton of neutral alts in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars


I'm not talking about neutral alts in Scimitars repping someone. I'm talking about fleet members in no holds barred null battles repping allies to cover disengagement on a gate without having to commit suicide in a 200mil isk ship to save a 40 mil isk Drake.

well. this is not different from using interdictor with probes following main fleet to make enemies slower. Support role.

shadow of XXDERPXX ejaculating the pvp wisdom upon us, my mouth is open and I want more
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-03-23 19:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyron-Baktos
Only issue I see in null is logi will no longer be able to jump/dock once they get primaried to break the targeting lock, then jumping/undocking back in to the fight to continues reps. While I feel this is a good change for reasons already mentioned, this will make it harder for gangs to field logi
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-03-23 19:04:59 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
So instead of you being frustrated by unbreakable logi chains you'll be frustrated by a lack of potential targets

Lemme get this right

If they stop logis from being able to dock immediately.... I'll suffer because your gang of neutral scimitars will be too scared to repair you

lol.


Also, if cost matters, i want my triage carrier to be able to jump while in triage and have it immute to ewar as well. My carrier costs 1.6 bil, your logi only costs 200. I'm risking a lot more then you so i should have more opportunities to run away


It has nothing to do with fear it's about risk and chance of victory. You want people to fight you then they need to believe they have an edge.

Really how have you managed to play this game as long as you have and not figure this out

Eve combat is about making the other guy think he has the advantage while you are the one with the real advantage.

Appealing to e-honor and silly taunts about someones "courage" in this video game aren't going to change the basic nature of how people play. In general (meaning there are some exceptions) people in this game only take calculated risks. Your taunts aren't going to make that guy who'd be willing to undock if he felt his logi are "safe" (the quotes are there for a reason) do so if they are under higher risk. Hell it even if the FC and others were willing to do so odds are no one would admit to having a logi available under such circumstances.

Oh and on the cost argument. Stop being obtuse stating it's a factor is not a claim that it justifies being invulnerable or that it's the only factor that should be considered. But cost does effect your risk calculations. I'm perfectly willing to bet that you are far more likely to put your 200mil isk Scimi into more risky situations than you'll put your 1.6 bil carrier in.

Also the very fact that your carrier can Triage is part of the advantage you get for paying 1.6 bil, you get massive levels of rep while in triage which vastly improves your chances of survival. No it's not invulnerable but in certain circumstances it's pretty damned close.

Also I find it amusing that someone as obviously risk adverse as you are accusing someone else of being afraid to engage against poor odds.

Gilbaron wrote:
The whole thing should be solved as simple as possible.

Using a module that affects another player should prevent the user from docking or jumping for X amount of time, doesn't matter whether it's repairing, boosting, ewar or shooting


Go away the adults are talking here and you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Andrea Roche wrote:
stuff!


Anonymous forum alt opinions are irrelevant.


Grath Telkin wrote:


Yes, it means that finally station and gate games are going to have consequences, seems like a good addition to the game to everybody else.

The ability to engage without consequence needs to go.


Stations and gates are where the bulk of small and medium scale PVP takes place. Reducing the amount of people willing ot engage on them is going to have an adverse affect on general levels of PVP.

So no it just means that people are going to be that much less likely to engage period. It's going to make it harder to fight against poor odds which by extension means people will be less willing to engage in those situations.

Forcing a logi to dock or jump still removes it from combat for at least the time it takes to dock and come back out (admittedly the changes to the session timers have reduced the amount of time it takes them out of combat)

Thinking about it perhaps a better option than getting an aggression timer to prevent gate jumping/docking perhaps have the presence of a rep timer set a post jump/dock session timer of a full 60 seconds. Then you'd remove the ability to undock repair, redock then immediately undock again and repeat the process. This would allow Logi to still cover a retreat but not do the in and out game.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-03-23 19:08:03 UTC
Roxwar wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.

Its kinda silly to have a shitton of people (neutral OR any other color) in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars

If the logi is going to provide assistance to the battle, he should be committed to that battle just like the people he's assisting.

Not empty quoting for effect.


Short of it is, all you war deccing tards that RR in your leet high sec battles, only for your nuet flying doctors to immediately warp off/dock when red boxed is getting fixed, as overdue as it is.

You want to RR yourself with your alt cos you picked a fight with the wrong carebear? Sure, just consider your RR to be lost too due to mechanics that will be WORKING AS INTENDED.

Trololololololol


You are in the wrong thread this isn't about neutral RR. This is about the potential effects of the proposed changes to Null and Low sec combat where neutral RR is not an issue.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2012-03-23 19:13:33 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Stuff


Sorry man, this has literally been a complaint forever, and you are one of the few people who seem to think that what goes on around gates and stations is ok.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2012-03-23 19:18:14 UTC
I think the part you don't get, is that yes, it may in fact reduce the number of small gang fights, but in a large portion of those fights nobody dies anyway, because of the way neutral RR works, and the way station games work.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-03-23 19:23:25 UTC
I find myself in full agreement... with Grath. The station/gate games being played even in nullsec have gone on FAR too long. The fact that you can rep, jump through when primaried, and be back on the field in less than 15 seconds with the session timer changes, or even the exact situation you're talking about, covering a retreat and escape with no possibility of dying is something has need changing for years.

If that makes you too chickenshit to fly logis anymore, that's your problem. Personally, I'll keep flying them, and if my FC calls for us to deaggress on a gate and try to wait out our timers, I'll stop repping if I don't want to die. Amazingly, just like what the combat pilots have to do!!
Mentat Cthulhu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-03-23 19:27:55 UTC
Bad for small gangs who already fight at such disadvantage against larger foes.

I'd rather see nerf of stuff that really destroys pvp like hot dropping.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#77 - 2012-03-23 19:28:45 UTC
As others have stated, these 'unintended consequences' that OP is mewling about are actually a good thing. In fact, you shouldn't even inherit the timer of the guy you're repping, when you initiate a rep your own 60-second timer should start and I hope this 'inheriting timer' nonsense was a misstatement.

If you're applying positive DPS or ewar against the enemy or using a module to reduce effective enemy DPS you are a combatant and identical mechanics should apply.
Roxwar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-03-23 19:36:15 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:


You are in the wrong thread this isn't about neutral RR. This is about the potential effects of the proposed changes to Null and Low sec combat where neutral RR is not an issue.



Good catch!

My reply was supposed to be posted in this thread > Here so jesus knows why it ended up in here! Thanks for pointing it out Lol
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-03-23 19:45:26 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.


He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.


The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed)


Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.

In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.


No fc wants to lose logistics! Despite it being a change that greyscale made, I think I'm ok with it and I fly logi 90% of the time.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-03-23 21:09:19 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Stuff


Sorry man, this has literally been a complaint forever, and you are one of the few people who seem to think that what goes on around gates and stations is ok.


I understand that this is a long standing complaint. I'm just not one who's ever found it all that awful and I say this as someone who does been on the receiving end of the tactic far more often than I've benefited from it.

I just think that most peoples complaint is short sited and doesn't move beyond the surface "OMG it's unfair that I can't keel him he should have to commit to the fight blah blah blah" generally while flying around in Minmatar and Angel ships who's popularity relies primarily on being able to avoid having to commit to fights.

Oh and from people who are more than happy to bait then then bring in a massively superior force to ensure that they are only committing to a fight they are almost certain to win.

Come on you're PL, you guys have been known to drop a cap fleet on solo ratting Drakes just for the hell of it and you're going to get all indignant about logi being able to avoid aggression timers if they don't engage in an aggressive action?

The complaint as I see it primarily boils down to the fact that people are using a game mechanic the way it was intended to avoid having their ships blown up.

This isn't like Garmon using a bug to prevent JF's from warping. It's perfectly obvious that webs aren't supposed to stop people from warping, in fact it's generally a bad idea to use a web on something you want to stop from warping (at least until you get a point on it) since it normally makes it easier to get into warp by lowering the velocity needed.

Logi get to dock up despite repping because remote repping isn't an aggressive act and aggressive acts are what gate and docking timers key off of.

And honestly saying this has been a long running complaint is a bit dis-ingenious as even in the relatively short time I've been playing this game the focus of the complaint has changed.

I mean come on this **** was kicked off by Pittboss from the Orphanage who was essentially just pissed that someone could grief him back by using RR to save their ships.

You can generally tell someone is being dis-ingenious in their arguments when they start by associating a behavior with an unpopular minority then moving the goal post. Such as framing the complaint as "Neutral" RR rather than just leading with the more generic "people using RR to prevent me from killing them".

Which is what leads me to conclude that those leading the charge for this change are primarily just mad that someone has figured out a way to avoid being a victim. The rabble is then brought along on the false premise that this was ever about "Neutral RR" in the first place rather than people just mad about the way Logistics worked in general.


If it was about being able to play the undock repair dock repeat game then the suggested I made of a post session change cool off timer off the flag would be sufficient. Hell then you wouldn't even have to keep track of multiple timers just flag them if they've repped someone who had aggression in the last 60 seconds and set a flat timer of say 60 seconds on a gate or 2 minutes on a station when they docked/jumped, this would prevent the I'm gonna bounce back and forth problem.

Using what is likely to be a highly complex aggression propagation mechanic simply to ensure that logi has to be the last to leave the field just results in a flat out nerf of one of the key advantages logi provides.

Hell the main reason that logistics can succeed in protecting friendly ships on gates and undocks is precisely the fact that repping isn't an aggressive act which presents the aggressor with choice to either force the logi off the field or burn through their reps. add an aggro timer such as suggested and it's no longer a choice, the aggressor goes for the RR since it's not going to be be able to dock and it won't have much in the way of a local tank. which makes providing reps on a station or gate essentially a death sentence.

So this change is pretty much a blanket nerf to logi rather than an attempt to address "neutral RR".