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2x Hulk or Hulk + Orca
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#21 - 2012-03-21 17:38:44 UTC
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

As for an Orca's bonuses, I don't have the math with me, but a maxed trained Orca pilot with the mining forman ganglink will turn 2 hulks into the equivalent of three hulks. I haven't rerun the math with the new T2 gang modules though.


It's about a 40% bonus for a T1 gang-linked Orca and 65% for a T2 gang-linked Orca (at the upper end).
Delphinia Anzomi
The Corinth Clan
#22 - 2012-03-21 18:08:23 UTC
Seems like the general opinion is that Hulk + Orca is more sensable. :) thanks for your opinions :P
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-03-21 18:20:49 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
You sticking plate in those lows?.....


Two words: Damage Control

Quote:
The point is if you are only using 1 hulk, you are making very poor returns for your 2 characters.


2 cargo rigged Hulks with cargo expanders in lows vs. Hulk with one MLU + T2 gang linked Orca. Are you sure you got your math right?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#24 - 2012-03-21 18:37:12 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

As for an Orca's bonuses, I don't have the math with me, but a maxed trained Orca pilot with the mining forman ganglink will turn 2 hulks into the equivalent of three hulks. I haven't rerun the math with the new T2 gang modules though.


It's about a 40% bonus for a T1 gang-linked Orca and 65% for a T2 gang-linked Orca (at the upper end).

Did someone say MATH? Big smile

How much does a Mining Foremand implant help?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=681530#post681530
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-21 18:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
You sticking plate in those lows?.....


Two words: Damage Control

Quote:
The point is if you are only using 1 hulk, you are making very poor returns for your 2 characters.


2 cargo rigged Hulks with cargo expanders in lows vs. Hulk with one MLU + T2 gang linked Orca. Are you sure you got your math right?


Let's see that math Jorma or whoever else has the math. BTW I'm not arguing.
I just want to know the right answer out of curiosity. Assume max skills.

Edit: some initial calculations as I was curious.
Assuming 1 Hulk's yield is X.
2 Hulks is 200% of X.

MLU is 9% more yield
Mining Foreman Link is 2.5% faster laser cycles
Orca gives 15% bonus to the Link effectiveness

Assuming 2 MLUs that is 18% more.
Orca plus foreman link, that's 2.83% faster cycles.
Not sure about the exact math, but 18% more yield + 2.83% faster cycles just does not sound enough to make up for the loss of X from 1 not 2 hulks?

TL;DR
Orca and mindlinks and MLU bonus is very nice, but in no way is it remotely near to making up for an entire additional hulk's yield! Possibly 50% of it maybe, but 100% of it, or more than 100% of it? Reality check here.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#26 - 2012-03-21 19:13:13 UTC
I would say like everything else in Eve it depends.

If you are in High Sec where can flipping is a problem the Hulk and Orca.

If you are in Null Sec where it's not so much of a problem go with 2 hulks and fill up jet cans. Then every hour to hour and a half go get the Orca and haul the ore back to your PoS.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#27 - 2012-03-21 19:18:20 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Let's see that math Jorma or whoever else has the math. BTW I'm not arguing.
I just want to know the right answer out of curiosity. Assume max skills.

Ermm... read the post I linked above.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-03-21 19:34:39 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Theroetical only, assuming you have someone else to haul so you don't have to stop mining.

Without Mining Foreman Mindlink

Where number of people in fleet > 1 for max skill Mining Foreman bonus (no mindlink):
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 10% Mining Foreman bonus)

Yield(1) = 1.10
Yield(2) = 2.20
Yield(3) = 3.30
Yield(4) = 4.40
Yield(5) = 5.50

Max skill Orca and 2% cycle reduction link (no mindlink):
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 10% Mining Foreman bonus) / (1-0.02*5*1.5*1.15)

Yield(1) = 1.32
Yield(2) = 2.65
Yield(3) = 3.98
Yield(4) = 5.31
Yield(5) = 6.64

Max skill Orca and 2.5% cycle reduction link (no mindlink):
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 10% Mining Foreman bonus) / (1-0.025*5*1.5*1.15)

Yield(1) = 1.40
Yield(2) = 2.80
Yield(3) = 4.20
Yield(4) = 5.60
Yield(5) = 7.01

With Mining Foreman Mindlink

Where number of people in fleet > 1 for mindlink bonus:
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus)

Yield(1) = 1.15
Yield(2) = 2.30
Yield(3) = 3.45
Yield(4) = 4.60
Yield(5) = 5.75

Mindlinked max skill Orca and 2% cycle reduction link:
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus) / (1-0.02*5*1.5*1.5*1.15)

Yield(1) = 1.55
Yield(2) = 3.10
Yield(3) = 4.65
Yield(4) = 6.20
Yield(5) = 7.75

Mindlinked max skill Orca and 2.5% cycle reduction link:
Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus) / (1-0.025*5*1.5*1.5*1.15)

Yield(1) = 1.69
Yield(2) = 3.39
Yield(3) = 5.09
Yield(4) = 6.79
Yield(5) = 8.49



Nice calculations Tau.
OK so to my understanding of what you are saying, the part in bold says Hulk + Orca max everything gives 1.69, still less than Hulk + Hulk which gives 2.
So for 1 guy, 1 Hulk is best
2 guys, 2 Hulks is best
3 guys, 2 Hulks 1 Orca is best
4 guys, 3 Hulks 1 Orca is best
5 guys, 4 Hulks 1 Orca is best etc.?

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#29 - 2012-03-21 20:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
How about

2 Hulks AND an Orca ? Smile

It is very easy to tank an ORCA to survive even a large gank squad long enough for CONCORD to show up.



Just for the record, it takes a skilled Megathron 140 seconds (depending) to down a scrammed Orca. Don't ask. Ugh

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-03-21 20:53:18 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
OK so to my understanding of what you are saying, the part in bold says Hulk + Orca max everything gives 1.69, still less than Hulk + Hulk which gives 2.
So for 1 guy, 1 Hulk is best
2 guys, 2 Hulks is best
3 guys, 2 Hulks 1 Orca is best
4 guys, 3 Hulks 1 Orca is best
5 guys, 4 Hulks 1 Orca is best etc.?


Yeah, this is true. And there is also that range link. Even without mindlink Orca pilot boosts strip miner range from 15km to 22,2km = 44,4km effective range. That's nowhere near enough for some belts.
Kasha Belle
On your Left you will See Mars
#31 - 2012-03-22 01:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasha Belle
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
How about

2 Hulks AND an Orca ? Smile

I run 3 hulks/Macks plus an Orca and it works great.
I started out with 1 hulk and an hauler who later got into an ORCA and I have no regrets.
1 hulk and 1 ORCA is a great combo. Especially if you keep the orca in belt, if your hulk pilot is also a good combat pilot you can keep a T3 in the ship maintenance bay to counter gankers. nothing scares a ganker like seeing a hulk disappear only to be replaced by a T3 with a pilot they have already agroed. It is very easy to tank an ORCA to survive even a large gank squad long enough for CONCORD to show up.


Great point - however would be ship swappers beware: you cannot board your combat ship in the orca's Ship Maintance Bay if you're target locked by a would be ganker (or even an npc). Also you can't swap ships from an Orca if you have anything else bar ammo/mining crystals in your cargo hold so dump any ore/loot quickly into the Orca.

Otherwise yeah - nasty surprises await within, although personally i wouldn't quite go so far as using a T3 - way to much to lose in the event of a successful attack - a mix of Frig / ganky shortrange cruiser should do the trick. Even got space for a BC in there.

PS - You shouldn't be ever be wanting to get in this situation unless you know you can win.

PPS - are the previous post's calculations taking into account flight time back and forth from station?? Thought not.
Indy Toon Finder
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-03-22 03:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Indy Toon Finder
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
How about

2 Hulks AND an Orca ? Smile

I run 3 hulks/Macks plus an Orca and it works great.
I started out with 1 hulk and an hauler who later got into an ORCA and I have no regrets.
1 hulk and 1 ORCA is a great combo. Especially if you keep the orca in belt, if your hulk pilot is also a good combat pilot you can keep a T3 in the ship maintenance bay to counter gankers. nothing scares a ganker like seeing a hulk disappear only to be replaced by a T3 with a pilot they have already agroed. It is very easy to tank an ORCA to survive even a large gank squad long enough for CONCORD to show up.



awesome, hey CCP your **** forums ate my post again. screw it.
Delphinia Anzomi
The Corinth Clan
#33 - 2012-03-22 03:43:21 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



Just for the record, it takes a skilled Megathron 140 seconds (depending) to down a scrammed Orca. Don't ask. Ugh



Good to know. lol
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-03-22 06:22:19 UTC
Mining + orca is a much better choice in my opinion. I also have my orca pilot trained to use a hulk as well, so if I'm feeling up to it I can dual mine while the orca pilot (piloting a hulk) can still give boosts.

A couple points I didn't notice I wanted to make to help with you making your decision.


  1. With 2 hulks you still need to deal with hauling, and an orca will be your best choice for hauling ore from belt to system. If you are using 2 hulks then yes you will technically be getting a much better yield (obviously) but you will need to deal with hauling from belt, either the jetcans or each miner hauling two and from belt. This would average out to roughly 1 cycle lost each time a load needs to be hauled to the station.

    2. Assuming using 2 expanded cargo holds and losing the 18% extra yield and having a total of roughly 18,000m3 your hulks would be losing 1 cycle (from hauling) roughly every 4 cycles. Meaning every hour your going to lose 5 additional cycles worth of mining per hulk aka about 50,000m3 total.

  2. You will want to train at least 1 of you hulk pilots for boosting regardless of if you plan on using an orca or not. But at the same time chances are by the time one of your hulk pilots is trained to do boots you will be withing 7 days of flying an orca. So you might as well get it.

  3. An orca is going to be the best ship to use for hauling ores from belt to station, so it is good to get regardless.

  4. No idea why no one else dosen't do this, but the orca can use mining drones I & II, which is always a nice extra yeild per hour.

  5. Having an orca is a nice defense against gankers if you are paying attention and fast enough. If you notice a non-miner ship enter the belt simply stop your mining lasers, jetisson or put the ore in your hold into the orca and right click and store ship in ship hangar. Hulk saved.

  6. And finally if you are a part of a corp/alliance having a well trained up orca will help out all the other miners, plus you'll most likely still get a cut from any mining ops you are doing, which would equal out what you would have gotten as a hulk pilot.


Hope this helps out.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-03-22 10:57:50 UTC
Orca is good. Apart from its utility in gang, it has the epeen factor.

Of course, if all you care about is straight ISK income, another option is simply to forget the 2nd account and use the money instead for PLEX! 480ish mil ISK is a heck of a lot of veldspar mining...

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Tikera Tissant
#36 - 2012-03-22 12:22:49 UTC
Delphinia Anzomi wrote:
Which one is better for hs mining?

Will decide my skill queue on my alt :P


An hulk and an orca are the best overall.

Two hulks if you fully skill them, they will do together about 20-22 mil / hour.
A single hulk with orca boost will do 20 mil / hour.

As the two hulks have to either jetcan and you have to leave in order to get a hauler, or you have to dock to offload, they spend a lot of time not mining (reason why doing almost half of a single hulk).

The single hulk and orca on the other end, the hulk can mine almost 100% of the time, and the orca you just afk it and tell it to follow the hulk (or the other way around).

This is the reason a hulk and an orca are best.
Also once comfortable in multiboxing, you can add a second hulk, and double your income.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#37 - 2012-03-22 12:32:51 UTC
Delphinia Anzomi wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



Just for the record, it takes a skilled Megathron 140 seconds (depending) to down a scrammed Orca. Don't ask. Ugh



Good to know. lol


hint: Don't mine during a war dec. Straight

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#38 - 2012-03-22 12:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Styth spiting wrote:

  • No idea why no one else dosen't do this, but the orca can use mining drones I & II, which is always a nice extra yeild per hour.



    • Indeed, they mine enough to save about 2-3 cycles (depending) per Orca load with 2 Hulks mining.


    When Ice Mining though (Mining Drones are useless for this), I put Med Shield Maintenance Bot II's from the Orca to one of the Hulks. That Hulk then uses them on the other Hulk. THAT Hulk defends with Combat drones.

    The Shield Maint Drones will help in dealing with up to a small gank gang. Of course, it's all out the window with Smartbombs involved..................

    "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
    Bugsy VanHalen
    Society of lost Souls
    #39 - 2012-03-22 13:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    How about

    2 Hulks AND an Orca ? Smile

    It is very easy to tank an ORCA to survive even a large gank squad long enough for CONCORD to show up.



    Just for the record, it takes a skilled Megathron 140 seconds (depending) to down a scrammed Orca. Don't ask. Ugh

    no argument there. but is that a max tanked ORCA? Even if it is 140 seconds is 2 minutes 20 seconds. Even in 0.5 space CONCORD response is usually less than 2 minutes.

    So maybe 2-3 skilled and well fitted megathron can kill a maxed tank orca before concord shows up. But very few gankers are interested in that kind of loss just for an ORCA killmail.

    My ORCA has over 200k ehp plus a X-large shield booster, and my cap lasts over 2 minutes. Long enough for concord to get there. I am nopt saying it is not possible for my ORCA to get ganked, But I feel quite safe as the amount of gank needed would cost more than my ORCA is worth.

    Since you no longer receive insurance payouts when killed by concord that is a large amount of isk to throw away just to kill an orca with no return. At best you would get some ore dropped from regular cargo but nothing from the ore hold or corp hanger.

    Most gank squads are made up of destroyers or the new Tier 3 BC's. For the most part an organized gank squad will only attack if the potential loot is higher value than the fleet needed for the gank.

    I have never lost an ORCA and only lost one hulk in over 3 years. And that hulk I lost was near the beginning of my mining career.

    The right fit combined with a little brain power and planing high sec mining is very safe. At least it has been for me.
    Zetaomega333
    High Flyers
    #40 - 2012-03-22 14:09:25 UTC
    I like how everyone assumes OP is mining in highsec.
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