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Are Battlecruisers simply too good?
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Alara IonStorm
#161 - 2012-05-14 13:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
DeBingJos wrote:
The best suggestion I read so far is still: Cruisers should use small rigs.

the cost would go down and more people would use them.

I doubt that if you tanked T1 Cruiser cost people would use them.

Right now Armor Rigged T1 Cruisers fitting even an 800mm plate like the Thorax, Maller, Vexor, Arbitrator are all slower then a Shield Hurricane and an Armor Rupture fitting a 800mm Plate not a 1600mm is only 3m/s faster. The Moa which is a Shield Cruiser is slower then a Shield Cane. This is all before you throw on the Nano or even Nano's.

I understand that Shield is supposed to be quicker then Armor but a Ship a class above.

The single biggest boost you can give to Cruisers is to remove Rig Penalties, right there every Armor Cruiser is now as fast or faster then Shield Battlecruisers. As a bonus Cruiser become harder to take down by Battleships while still being vulnerable to heavier Battlecruiser platforms designed to kill them. It also slightly buffs Armor Battlecruisers whose use currently is more limited. Not only that but it lets Shield Ships fit electronic rigs, Armor Ships fit Astronautics and tight PG / CPU Ships fit weapons rigs increasing potential rig variety.

Removing Rig Penalties would be a colossal buff to Shield / Armor Cruisers and Armor Battlecruisers.

The second biggest thing you can do is remove the Tier System and give every Cruiser the fitting. cap, slot number of ships like the Rupture and Thorax.

Make cruisers free and people will still save up up for Hurricanes. Hurricanes with Large Rigs at that. Make Cruisers well balanced fast attack platforms and people will fly them because they are good at their role and not because they are throwaway.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#162 - 2012-05-14 14:00:23 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:


Removing Rig Penalties would be a colossal buff to Shield / Armor Cruisers and Armor Battlecruisers.

The second biggest thing you can do is remove the Tier System and give every Cruiser the fitting. cap, slot number of ships like the Rupture and Thorax.


The first suggestion raises some potential concerns all around, but I'm not necessarily opposed to it. It does make calibration the only consideration when fitting rigs (whereas currently you must consider increased PG/CPU use, loss of EHP, etc).

The second suggestion is superb. I cannot wait for tiericide. I'm really looking forward to a time when the T1 cruisers are all equally viable options - but the difference is the role they fill. They don't necessarily need to same fitting, cap, slot layout, but they do all need to be viable options.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#163 - 2012-05-14 14:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Alara IonStorm wrote:


The second biggest thing you can do is remove the Tier System and give every Cruiser the fitting. cap, slot number of ships like the Rupture and Thorax.



Thorax is no where near the rupture when it comes to fitting potential and cap stability, or even number of slots (ruppy gets +1). Thorax is basically 2 slots fewer than ruppy when fitting it with an armor buffer. -1 natural slot, and -1 for a fitting mod to fit a 1600 plate with smallest med guns, something a rupture does not require. They are not comparable based on the merits you have listed, rupture is in it's own class... A class that all cruisers including the thorax should be balanced against.

Other than that I pretty much agree with your post alara. While reducing the relative cost of t1 cruisers by having them fit small rigs is arguably a good solution I agree that people will not fly them with any consistency on that potential change alone. As you stated, cruisers need to be balanced against the top tier of t1 cruisers atm, aka rupture. An increase in speed is also mandatory allowing even armor buffer fit cruisers to be faster than shield nano canes as many have stated in this thread and others.
Alara IonStorm
#164 - 2012-05-14 15:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Thorax is no where near the rupture when it comes to fitting potential and cap stability, or even number of slots (ruppy gets +1). Thorax is basically 2 slots fewer than ruppy when fitting it with an armor buffer. -1 natural slot, and -1 for a fitting mod to fit a 1600 plate with smallest med guns, something a rupture does not require. They are not comparable based on the merits you have listed, rupture is in it's own class... A class that all cruisers including the thorax should be balanced against.

Yes that is all very true but it doesn't mean you should be so quick to foresake the Armor Thorax. It has almost twice the Capacitor for a start letting it run its MWD longer. Even with the lowest weapons it does more DPS then a Ruptures guns with the option for medium drones that push it higher. It maintains near the same tank with that fitting rig do to a stronger base buffer and without that third rig its speed is comparable to an Armor Rupture.

I actually prefer flying the Armor Thorax to the Armor Rupture because of all that. It is my favorite Armor Cruiser.

[Thorax, Alara's Thorax]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x5

I use this fit as a Cruiser killer overheating my MWD and Scram to get in range. In a Brawl scenario at range the Thorax is one of the best ships their is. Between the Valks, Web and Electrons most Frigates bite the dust pretty quickly too though it isn't as good as some of the other anti frigate options.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#165 - 2012-05-14 15:31:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Yes that is all very true but it doesn't mean you should be so quick to foresake the Armor Thorax. It has almost twice the Capacitor for a start letting it run its MWD longer. Even with the lowest weapons it does more DPS then a Ruptures guns with the option for medium drones that push it higher. It maintains near the same tank with that fitting rig do to a stronger base buffer and without that third rig its speed is comparable to an Armor Rupture.



I'm not trying to forsake the armor thorax, I fly them all the time. All I was trying to do is highlight the obvious advantages the rupture has compared to the thorax in fitting potential as well as slotage. Longer range, and capless weapons and slightly more speed/smaller sig should be the ruptures advantage. Not +2 slots making it arguably the best brawling cruiser.

And btw alara, we fly the exact same thorax fitCool
Alara IonStorm
#166 - 2012-05-14 15:32:42 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

And btw alara, we fly the exact same thorax fitCool

Even the Valks? Shocked
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#167 - 2012-05-14 16:34:45 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

And btw alara, we fly the exact same thorax fitCool

Even the Valks? Shocked


Depends on target really. I carry several types of drones in hold and if i have a chance to dock up and swap them around to suit a potential fight I will.