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Are Battlecruisers simply too good?
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Perihelion Olenard
#121 - 2012-03-23 15:28:10 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

I like this idea a lot. It strikes me that all BCs should use large weapons.

What would be the point of the brutix, ferox, prophecy, harbinger, cyclone, and hurricane, then? The tier 3 would obsolete them all if they all became glass cannons with large weapons. The myrmidon would field five ogres again in addition to large hybrids and the drake would fire torpedoes or cruise missiles; since they have different weapon platforms they wouldn't be obsoleted.


That's like saying that the Abaddon obsoletes the Armageddon, or that the Tempest is useless because the Maelstrom is just better. Each ship is good at something different, and there is enough variety in roles that the ships all having the same gun size can still result in variety.

That said, a change like this would hugely limit the effectiveness of battlecruisers. It gives them a nice niche, but I'm not sure it's that good an idea.

Personally, I would love it. I fly frigates. Tier 3 BCs as they are are wonderful fodder, and if they had smaller/weaker versions, those would be even more fun to kill.


But he likes the idea that all the BCs should have large weapons like the tier 3. Why fly a lower tier of the same thing that has less slots and firepower (the exception being a different weapon platform)?

Each battleship has it's own role next to the other battleships in their own race. That's obvious from their ship bonuses. However, the guy I quoted would like all BCs to the be the same with large weapons and probably be a glass cannon. IMO, that would be bad.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#122 - 2012-03-23 18:52:40 UTC
Drop all damage bonuses on the Tier 3 BC
Give all BC around 25% more mass.

Fixed

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#123 - 2012-03-23 19:11:45 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Drop all damage bonuses on the Tier 3 BC
Give all BC around 25% more mass.

Fixed


Uh, that is not "fixed". That is "stupid".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Shrike Arghast
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2012-03-23 21:25:03 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
But he likes the idea that all the BCs should have large weapons like the tier 3. Why fly a lower tier of the same thing that has less slots and firepower (the exception being a different weapon platform)?

Each battleship has it's own role next to the other battleships in their own race.


Is there any reason the other two BCs for a race couldn't have similar bonuses? The problem with T1 & T2 BCs right now is that their 'mission' in combat is so non-specific and broad that they eat the cruisers' entire job. Nobody would argue with a battleship that the point of having them in EVE is so they can do everything BCs do but better, but that is precisely the relationship that BCs have with cruisers: anything you can do, I can do better, stronger, harder... and the result is, obviously, that an entire class of ships that were once a really big staple of combat situations in EVE have essentially been relegated to the dustbin of history.

If you gave all BC's battleship-sized weapons and made their bonuses (and, as a result, roles in combat) different, the the argument for 'why to fly one' would be the same reason one might choose a Geddon over and Apoc; cheaper, different, situationally better. That's a much better situation than the 'ultimate supercruiser derp-ships' that we have today.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#125 - 2012-03-23 21:30:08 UTC
The problem with T1 and T2 BCs is that T1 cruisers are overwhelmingly complete ****. There's no reason to so dramatically modify the game by making all BCs just like Tier 3s.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Perihelion Olenard
#126 - 2012-03-23 21:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Maybe we should put large weapons on cruisers as well as all the BCs. Blink
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#127 - 2012-03-23 21:58:21 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Maybe we should put large weapons on cruisers as well as all the BCs. Blink


We did. They're called Tier 3 Battlecruisers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#128 - 2012-03-23 22:25:06 UTC
Problem has far more to do with relative cost of fitting post insurance than it does with the actual performance of the cruisers.

As stated previously in this thread a rigged and well fitted cruisers currently costs only a few mil less than Similarly fit BC after insurance pay outs. The solution is to increase the relative fitting cost between cruisers and bcs and I believe the best solution lies in the size of rigs. Changing cruisers to use small rigs could commonly save 8+ mil per hull making them easily 15 mil cheaper than a BC after mods, rigs, insurance. A small increase to speed and slight reduction to sig is also probably needed.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#129 - 2012-03-24 00:20:48 UTC
I really think tier 1 and 2 BC are overpowered in regards to their ehp/mass and fitting
Infact, I made some comparisons between BC and cruisers, and between destroyers and frigates

BC speed - cruiser speed ~= dessy speed - frig spee
OK (mean that minmatar BC/dessy have same base speed than Caldari cruiser/frig respectively; others are between
cruiser speed += 15-20% BC spee
frig speed += 20-30% dessy spee

BC mass += 10-20% cruiser mas
dessy mass += 50% frig mas

cruiser ti3 hp ~= 1600*
BC ti1 hp ~= 4200*
BC ti2 have a little more except the Drake which earn a little more than everyone over it's ti1 counterparts (but that put him in line with other BC ti2, because Ferox had a little less than it's counterparts
BC hp += 250% cruiser h
dessy hp ~= 700*
frig ti4 hp ~= 400*
dessy hp += 75% frig h

(stats of evelopedia this month
IMO, mass and speed variation of BC is absolutely not correlated to their ehp/slot increase. Moreover, mass and speed variation of BC can be completely overcome by modules to reach the base stats of cruisers, and the slot increase allow them to do it
The additional slots spread between high, mid and lows also allow them to be simply better than cruiser at cruising space. Infact, the problem of ti1 and 2 BC is that they are only super cruisers with ganglink option bonus

Looking at the stats, I even thought the dev who disigned them was just looking to make fleet cruisers without thinking to anything else

Considering the fitting, BC are a lot simpler to fit than any other ship in the game. On any ship except BC, you have to make a choice between your guns or your tank. BC take both

Why BC don't follow the same scheme than destroyers

I think they have too many of something: ehp, manoeuverability or firepower.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#130 - 2012-03-24 05:25:56 UTC
@Bouh Revetoile yes you're right in that mass and speed do not correlate the same way as other good things do. But an armored Tempest already flies as fast or even faster than an armored BC. Nerfing BC's speed and mass would be just wrong.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#131 - 2012-03-24 05:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

...
I think they have too many of something: ehp, manoeuverability or firepower.


Eve isn't a game played in a spreadsheet, and even if it were there's a lot of stuff missing from your comparison. The core problem you're observing is that T1 cruisers are kinda crap when trying to occupy a brawler role. I'm not sure that's a problem.

-Liang

Ed: And before you go off on me, I've already agreed that Tier 1/2 BCs could use some small mobility adjustments. But people are way underestimating the advantages of cruiser hulls.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#132 - 2012-03-24 09:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
Despite it being a troll fit, I enjoyed bait prophecies alot

Epic EHP, crap mobility, crap dps. Even had one that could do logistics quite well as well

BC's have many possible uses, it just seems that people only want to go with FOTM (flavor of the past two years now it seems). My main issue with the BC class is that they have versatility in spades, and have no glaring drawbacks compared to HACs. HACs just dont have enough benefit over t2 BCs to warrant the cost (in most cases)

I fly Gallente, and a Myrm is just better than an Ishtar or Deimos 90% of the time. It has an astronomical tank and the DPS is similar, just more balanced between drones and guns. Its also only ~1/3 the cost.
lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#133 - 2012-03-24 11:14:07 UTC
If they nerf the cane I want all the DAMN SP i spent into maxing it out back and spend that on training for my hulk.

Spaceprincess

People who put passwords on char bazaar Eveboards are the worst.
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2012-03-24 16:32:16 UTC
Answer to the OP: Yes, they are
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-05-11 21:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Archimedes Eratosthenes
They own most cruisers and can neut most frigates to uselessness (and then kill them as well). They insta-pop destroyer hulls.

They can escape almost all unfavorable encounters (battleships) and hold their own long enough to do so.

They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps

No other ship class is this versatile

Oh yeah, they are very cost effective too
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2012-05-12 01:33:15 UTC
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:


They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps


Not even remotely close to true.
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2012-05-12 02:43:46 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:


They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps


Not even remotely close to true.


You're right, you could be a noob cane pilot and not be in motion
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#138 - 2012-05-12 04:31:21 UTC
It's less of an issue with actual BC balance and more of an issue with the cost risk/reward issues when comparing a t2 ship to an insured t1 ship.
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2012-05-12 04:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Majuan Shuo
They are simply the most effective ship at the moment, nothing to worry about.

Also:

Why does reheated pizza taste EXTRA greasy?

Seriously: did the grease from last night's fresh pizza have funky greasy sex and have grease babies by the time I reheated it the next morning? G-R-O-S-S

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#140 - 2012-05-12 08:34:38 UTC
as for how good are T1 cruisers ?
Obviously so good that Raiden needs 2 carriers (in undock) and a gang of baddons (10+) to kill a gang of 15 thoraxes. RollLol

And as far as T3 BC's go they hit hard and die as fast, hell my thorax yesterday had more EHP then the Talos that I usually fly.