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Miners, an endangered species.
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Adunh Slavy
#61 - 2012-03-20 15:05:06 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:

Oranges


Conversation is about Apples

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Nadia Zandria
TechnoCorp
#62 - 2012-03-20 15:05:42 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor
[b wrote:

You have NEVER mined a unit of ORE ever.[/b]



Well, while I am ceo of a pvp corp its true, I also have two perfect mining alts, whilst we dont mine ore, we do do Ice ops, we have scouts in the two neighbouring systems, we have an orca and we have guards on site, mostly for rats but also in case someone slips a frigate in and on top of us when we are busy. We also use static bubbles on the directionals of the gates for an added layer of security. We also have combat or repping drone in or mackinaws. We usually have 10 to 15 people online in that op, around 3/4 of those are in mining barges of one sort or another.

We do the ops so that we can fuel our large number of pos's as cheaply as possible. The pilots,who are all PVPers or alts of PVPers who would much rather be doing something else, use their time without monetary compensation for this, the reward is that they are in a good corp, flying with good people, the reward is making their corp even better. They will X up every time they are asked, usually twice a month or so. If my pvpers can do it, surely an actual mining or indy corp can manage something similar?

If you are not prepared to fly as a team, and put some effort in to it, you do not deserve to be rewarded.



Well, locking a system down is "easy" in nullsec/lowsec, in Highsec its another story. Scouts is possible but you are not able to delay them in any means without having concord on your ass.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2012-03-20 15:09:21 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
You don't understand the mechanics that go into ganking a Mining barge. IMO Ganking of Tengus, Haulers is fine as in both cases there are very easy ways to defend your self. Tengus can just wait out their undock timers and redock if they see 2 Tornados sitting on a station. Even T1 haulers can use the MWD cloak trick to avoid high sec ganks and insta dock/warp bookmarks at stations.

Mining Barges on the other hand really are defenseless little lambs waiting for the big bad wolf to strike.
Miners can use the same undock timers, bookmarks and insta-warpouts as any other ship.

Quote:
There is no amount of repping that will stop a Alpha from a Tornado as example from killing any mining barge. There is no safety net for miners in a group as they then just become a bigger target for a few smart bombing BS.
Welcome to the rest of the game. Nothing is safe from a well-proportioned alpha, so the fact that a mining barge isn't either should come as no surprise. Likewise, nothing else is particularly safe in a group either — the group can't act until the gankers do no matter what they're in, and at that point, you're dead regardless of what you're flying if they're applying alpha… and if they don't, then the barges can be saved by the same goup means as any other ship.

Barges are not somehow magically different form other ships in EVE — anything tactic or technique available to other ships are available to the barge as well. The decision not to use these techniques are entirely up to the miner.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#64 - 2012-03-20 15:27:03 UTC
Nadia Zandria wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor
[b wrote:

You have NEVER mined a unit of ORE ever.[/b]



Well, while I am ceo of a pvp corp its true, I also have two perfect mining alts, whilst we dont mine ore, we do do Ice ops, we have scouts in the two neighbouring systems, we have an orca and we have guards on site, mostly for rats but also in case someone slips a frigate in and on top of us when we are busy. We also use static bubbles on the directionals of the gates for an added layer of security. We also have combat or repping drone in or mackinaws. We usually have 10 to 15 people online in that op, around 3/4 of those are in mining barges of one sort or another.

We do the ops so that we can fuel our large number of pos's as cheaply as possible. The pilots,who are all PVPers or alts of PVPers who would much rather be doing something else, use their time without monetary compensation for this, the reward is that they are in a good corp, flying with good people, the reward is making their corp even better. They will X up every time they are asked, usually twice a month or so. If my pvpers can do it, surely an actual mining or indy corp can manage something similar?

If you are not prepared to fly as a team, and put some effort in to it, you do not deserve to be rewarded.



Well, locking a system down is "easy" in nullsec/lowsec, in Highsec its another story. Scouts is possible but you are not able to delay them in any means without having concord on your ass.



I know it is a different system and set of rules, what I am pointing out though is that all it comes down to is preperation. If 0din, a full pvp corp with not a single industrialist in it can manage full ops like this, then surely industrial corps can manage the same amount of effort? We dont 'lock down' a system exactly, we dont have the manpower, but its about early warning and the ability to respond accordingly.
fully a third of our mining fleet are non mining vessels, why should hisec be that different? If I had 10 hulks sat in a sytem mining I would want some sort of security presence, thats 2 billion isk sat in space.

By the way, we do know the mechanics for ganking since we also do that for fun and profit when things are a little slow at home, look up Covert0nes youtube videos, tey may be under sons of 0din or somesuch but tehy are there, they make for funny viewing.

And as for smartbombing BSs, no one says you have to all sit together in a fat juicy target blob like that, spread out make it so they cant hit many of you at once, the orca has that nice tractor beam bonus so dont worry about can locations.

There is no excuse for saying 'we cant do mining ops because its too dangerous', that statement is just stupid. Have security forces, tank your ships, yes you may lose some yield, but you also get to mine in more safety, you may even enjoy the fact you need to do some planning. Heavens forbid you may even become good at it enough to post on here one day laughing about the old days when a guy could come and gank you.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#65 - 2012-03-20 15:42:05 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
[

Hi. You are very silly with that rant. All ships can be alpha'd. You can stop a tornado from aplhaing a hulk. You cant stop ship overkill from ganking you no matter what ship you are in.

I have successfully stopped ganks on myself in a mackinaw with proper tanks multiple times. I have never failed at a gank, and I have never found a miner with a proper tank.

Due to all the the gank whine threads I even asked people to be put on the safe list yesterday prior to ganking. Everyone who X'd up was marked as blue. I still found 2 marks.

cry moar, my cookies need dipped.

Ninja edit;

Align all you want pro gankers scramble.


You appear to have zero reading & comprehension skills. I gank Mininers.. I'm just stating that it's simply far too easy to gank them and there should be more they can do to avoid being ganked. No it shouldn't be a nerf on ganking it's self but there should be some better option for miners that could help them better avoid being ganked.
Shade Severii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-03-20 16:19:45 UTC
i miss mining.....

O WAIT NO I DONT IT IS ******* ****
Darronis Olachenko
#67 - 2012-03-20 16:31:27 UTC
I'll never fathom how some will go out of their way to scream "I hate mining! Miners are scum!". Really, what did the lowly miner ever do to you? Most people that mine know it's not the best way to make isk. They do it because it's a generally easy and mostly risk free (barring gankers) way to make a few bucks while being able to read a book, watch tv or chat with corpmates. They don't need to be "taught a lesson" that mining is a bad way to make money. Seems like just a giant case of "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE".
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-03-20 16:40:43 UTC
Orca pilot is the new Hulk pilot.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#69 - 2012-03-20 16:41:15 UTC
Kessiaan wrote:

Mineral prices would have to go up a lot to get me back to mining though.


That'll probably happen once hi-sec ores get closer to 200 ISK/m3 (up from the 120-150 that they are today, Pyrox is up around 175). Historically, hi-sec ores have been worth as little as 50-70 ISK/m3 across the board. At 200 ISK/m3, a solo Hulk pilot can pull in about 19M ISK/hr (figure 95k m3/hr solo). And if you put together a mini-fleet of (3) hulks + orca, you can pull in about 300k m3/hr of ore.
Selissa Shadoe
#70 - 2012-03-20 16:42:02 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

IMO it kinda sucks that real miners don't really have a defense to ganking, but with out the ganking there would be even more bots in this game.


Ever stop to think that ganking only helps INCREASE bot usage as a percentage of miners? A botter could replace a mining ship much more easily than a human player that puts effort into it. The non-bot player is much more likely to quit than a botter since it's their time and effort that has been blown up. The botter alliances simply replace the ship and carry on.

"Whether suicide ganking or doing anything in eve, there are exorbitant amounts of people in the game and on the forums that are complete jerks." - Spikeflach
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#71 - 2012-03-20 16:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Tippia wrote:
Miners can use the same undock timers, bookmarks and insta-warpouts as any other ship.


I'll tell the next guy I gank in a "belt" that he didn't need to die because station have undock timers.. you know I don't even fit a point or scam on my gank ships? Why? Because there is no way in hell that a Mining barge is going to warp b4 I can kill it , even with a Destroyer.



Tippia wrote:

Barges are not somehow magically different form other ships in EVE — anything tactic or technique available to other ships are available to the barge as well. The decision not to use these techniques are entirely up to the miner.


Barges are magically different than any other ship in the game because there is no other ship in the game that dies as easily or as often as mining barges to suicide ganks. They are too easy to gank and adding more tank simply means it just takes a extra gank ship (maybe) to complete the task. Maybe I need 4 Catylasts rather than 2 or 3..

Even as a ganker I know there is a issue with the how easy it is to gank them. Once you are in the belt with the barge there is pretty much zero he is going to do to stop you and if he lives or dies is really only up to if the Ganker has to DPS to kill him b4 Concord shows up.

Now being this is a sand box, I'm against CCP nefing ganks as they have already tried many times , the latest being you can no longer board a ship in high sec space while still having GCC.

What CCP should do, is give miners better ships more capable of defending them selves. They should also possible add more Grav sites in high sec and maybe even give miners better missions that were strictly for mining.

Doing this would allow "real" players to better defend themselves leaving mostly bots left to be ganked in belts.
Malena VXXI
#72 - 2012-03-20 16:50:43 UTC
Why

It's no surprise as miners and industrialist and traders are wannishing out in thin air due to CCP neglect of there gameplay
and most of those players wanted WiS

You dont f... people around .... We grow tired of being called Teddybears Carebears

Those PEW PEW people said f.. off and the miners, indy traders are now moving from eve

Consider the market and the manufactoring of ships cap ships is all about us that ain PEW PEW

CPP have serius matters to wake upp !! Twisted and those soo horny about PVP (pew pew) will end upp pvp in
there trousers as theres no ships or guns

I want WiS! * CCP  fix it!* 
Malena VXXI
#73 - 2012-03-20 16:54:20 UTC
TravisWB wrote:
As a relatively long term indy alt toon I have noticed something many of you are probably unaware of.

Hulks and the noob mining barges as well are vanishing from the game.
Our little neut alt corp is active in a couple of empires and many regions and are familiar with many rich mining areas that all have something new in common.

NO MINERS

Systems that once had heavy competitive pressure to get the ore are now mostly devoid of any miners whatsoever.
And this is a much bigger problem than many of you must understand.
Some mining/indy/missioning corps are now full time incursion farmers But the run of the mill, small corp afk mining noobs in a Hulk or two are fewer and farther between than I have EVER seen in nearly three years of play.
And these people were not bots, Bots are only in null, mining ABC around the clock.
Veldspar bots? Ice Bots, are you freaking STUPID?
Most hisec carebear miners/indys are less than 2 year old noobs that don't buy or sell isk. They usually take 6 months of hard work to get that Hulk that then likely as not gets ganked and they quit the game.
Or maybe they autopilot an industrial hauling a weeks worth of gametime work to a hub and that gets ganked. Same result, they quit the game.
And given the seedy and sorry reputation this game now has, guess what? There aren't any noobs out there in a Navitas learning how to mine.
Most 'noobs' these days are actually suicide ganking alts that belong to some jaded nullsec failbot corp. This game is going to fail and fail rather quickly if something isn't done pretty quick.
Nullsec is a total freaking fail. Watch this and try to see why. http://youtu.be/7zzJsA8iecA
And now hisec is swarmed with not bitter vets, but rather disillusioned thugs that dreamed of glory, but now settle for mere thuggery.
Mark my words, this game is going to fail. And when it does it will be far faster than you will imagine.

This has been going on for several months and it is getting worse, not better, not the same as always, but Worse, much worse,

The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.
''


mm

I want WiS! * CCP  fix it!* 
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-03-20 16:55:33 UTC
Probably already said but if items become too expensive to buy, more people will start making them, the system will fix itself.

It'd be rather interesting if items became so expensive people had to make them themselves like those first frigates / cruisers / etc from the beta days :P

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#75 - 2012-03-20 16:58:52 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
[

Hi. You are very silly with that rant. All ships can be alpha'd. You can stop a tornado from aplhaing a hulk. You cant stop ship overkill from ganking you no matter what ship you are in.

I have successfully stopped ganks on myself in a mackinaw with proper tanks multiple times. I have never failed at a gank, and I have never found a miner with a proper tank.

Due to all the the gank whine threads I even asked people to be put on the safe list yesterday prior to ganking. Everyone who X'd up was marked as blue. I still found 2 marks.

cry moar, my cookies need dipped.

Ninja edit;

Align all you want pro gankers scramble.


You appear to have zero reading & comprehension skills. I gank Mininers.. I'm just stating that it's simply far too easy to gank them and there should be more they can do to avoid being ganked. No it shouldn't be a nerf on ganking it's self but there should be some better option for miners that could help them better avoid being ganked.






disagreeing and not understanding are worlds apart. The REASON its far to easy to gank them
is because they put on yield and cargo increase mods instead of full tanks.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Nadia Zandria
TechnoCorp
#76 - 2012-03-20 17:02:26 UTC
Even if you fit them with tanks they are easy to kill. Maybe peopel should look at more challenging stuff to do, as you stated its too easy. So it means everything else is too difficult to do.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#77 - 2012-03-20 17:23:53 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
The whole suicide gank thing has gotten out of hand, more often I am encountering less than year old players who've gotten hit one too many times and are ready to quit.

Bump barges, indies, freighters and Orca HP by two to three times and it will put an end to a lot of this. If there needs to be a cost balance for that, bump build requirements by two to three times as well. It still leaves space plenty dangerous, still plenty of aggro games people can play with cans and wrecks, lame use of neut RR and cheesy Orca docking bay games.

The scam situation is not much better.

Yeah, I can understand 14 year olds getting into the suicide gank thing. But the average player age in EO is 28. Roll
I just don't understand the psychology of wanting to gank some guy who's minding his own business. If it's PVP people want, they can go to low sec, null sec, FW or Red vs. Blue. Or even wardec another corp FFS. Maybe it's just the tears they want. Which is just pathetic IMO. Maybe these gankers never got a chance to bully little kids in real life.
Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#78 - 2012-03-20 17:40:39 UTC
Darronis Olachenko wrote:
I'll never fathom how some will go out of their way to scream "I hate mining! Miners are scum!". Really, what did the lowly miner ever do to you? Most people that mine know it's not the best way to make isk. They do it because it's a generally easy and mostly risk free (barring gankers) way to make a few bucks while being able to read a book, watch tv or chat with corpmates. They don't need to be "taught a lesson" that mining is a bad way to make money. Seems like just a giant case of "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE".


this

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#79 - 2012-03-20 17:46:22 UTC
Posting to confirm that miners are mining away in nullsec. Right now, in fact.

Endangered? No. Adaptive? Yes.

HTFU.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Adunh Slavy
#80 - 2012-03-20 17:52:04 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Maybe these gankers never got a chance to bully little kids in real life.



Gank bears were the kids that got beat up.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt