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Miners, an endangered species.
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#41 - 2012-03-20 12:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Rico Minali wrote:
Miners just need to smarten up, it really isnt hard. Corp mining ops anyone? Have a repping BS sit with you, make it cap stable and you dont even have to watch it. You dont even need expensive ships use T1 logi cruisers.

I think what people are complaining about is that it isnt safe to solo afk mine. This is true. If your not afk and you see a combat ship warp in close or approach you, then warp off. But if you are in groups then how hard would it be for 10 hulks to be solidly repped by two or three t1 logi cruisers or a couple of 8 hislot BSs?

Dont whine, adapt, make the people who prey on you sad, make them quit suicide ganking because YOU made them stop not because you cried until CCP changed the rules. I know which I would feel better about.

It is an MMO, if you work in teams you will survive, adapt, be stronger than your opposition. How sad would they be if your 10 Hulks were defended by a pair of cap stable perma armour repping Domi's with heavy shield repping drones prelaunched and running on everyone? Fit a DC 2 and a plate, make those hulks hard. Carry shield or armour repping drones and have them perma repping a buddy, now you are solidly spider tanked and your hulks are near invulnerable. What if you also had an insta locking Cane with you, their suicided ship now also results in a player involved lossmail, and we all know how we value our stats...

Quitting is for quitters, be smarter than your enemy.


You don't understand the mechanics that go into ganking a Mining barge. IMO Ganking of Tengus, Haulers is fine as in both cases there are very easy ways to defend your self. Tengus can just wait out their undock timers and redock if they see 2 Tornados sitting on a station. Even T1 haulers can use the MWD cloak trick to avoid high sec ganks and insta dock/warp bookmarks at stations.

Mining Barges on the other hand really are defenseless little lambs waiting for the big bad wolf to strike.

There is no amount of repping that will stop a Alpha from a Tornado as example from killing any mining barge. There is no safety net for miners in a group as they then just become a bigger target for a few smart bombing BS.

The simple fact is Mining barges are the perfect prey for a suicide ganker as there really is no defense aside from just staying docked and I'm saying this as someone whom has ganked several barges with only a handful of fails. (fails have only happened due to bad luck on our part but by nothing the miner did)

While I don't think CCP should nerf ganking as gankers will just find another way, they should however give real miners better ability to avoid being ganked. Perhaps add a lot more Grav sites in high sec or add something along the lines of what I mentioned above with the ability to build ships using T3's & sub system that make for much harder targets to gank.

In all honestly it should be more work to Gank a Miner than using 3 noob alts in 2 mil ISK destroyers, yet ganking it's self should not be nefed but rather countered with better options for miners. It should be a cat & mouse game and not a nerf bat..
RealaiX
Dont be a drone
#42 - 2012-03-20 12:04:30 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
TravisWB wrote:
The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.


Mining isn't the base of the Eve economy.



so how you gonna get your spaceships if all miners stop mining Question
Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-03-20 12:06:07 UTC
A few words


1. Mining is the backbone of EVE regardless of what anyone thinks. Where do you think your ships come from. The drone poo comes from nullsec and mainly stays in nullsec. You may have some high end minerals coming to jita but once refined no one is transporting trit to Jita.

2. There is still mining happening just not as much in Caldari space. Which you look at killmails from hulkageddon They are always in Caldari space. Mining still happens in the other three empires.


3. Being smarter has nothing to do with it. If you are caught by a gank squad you are caught and there is nothing you can do about it. 10 thrashers are going to eat a hulk alive the same way that 10 gank tier 3 battle cruisers will eat a mission boat alive.


4. Normally mining is the first way that people try to make isk because its easy and being ganked for a retriever is nothing but its a fortune to a new player who has only just bought one. And changing belts to Grav sites will do nothing but make miners need extra training before they can mine. IE the osprey will become a redundant ship.


The real problem is that everyone wants to be a baddass and miners are the easiest targets to go for. They are seen as passive and week people because they are not baddass. But they are just playing the game they way that they want to. Its almost like "play my way or you suck.




Standing in for Karn Dulake who was banned for saying bad words
Ender Karazaki
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-03-20 12:11:35 UTC
Sorry, but why the hell would anyone mine when there are more interesting and less risky ways to make ISK? It's dull. You warp in fire your lasers and wait till you fill up and either jetcan - not advisable - empty at a station or shift it to the Orca. Whats so fascinating about that? There are other things far more interesting, safer and a lot more rewarding than mining.

In anycase, if the demand for minerals shoots up people will return to mining to make ISK. The market will correct it if nothing else does. Sorry if I'm not more sympathetic to your plight, but you should be happy. Less miners= less compitition = more isk for you.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#45 - 2012-03-20 12:32:02 UTC
Ender Karazaki wrote:
Sorry, but why the hell would anyone mine when there are more interesting and less risky ways to make ISK?



IT'S A SANBOX

HTFU

....and all this from folks that sat around for YEARS with this type of thing with CARDS and TABLETOPS and PENCILS......Roll

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Anshio Tamark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-03-20 12:45:18 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
TravisWB wrote:
The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.


Mining isn't the base of the Eve economy.



The New Player Tutorial quite clearly states IN PRINT that "Mining is the Backbone of EVE and its Economy".

If nobody mined, ships in High-sec would be a lot more expensive, because the people living in Drone-regions are greedy bastards. High-sec miners at least have enough sense to try and keep prices for stuff low. It's actually a shame I don't see as many miners around as I'd like to. Most of the people I know just run Missions or Exploration-sites to get their income. Whatever happened to those big Mining-blobs that would tear through belts a few years ago? They're almost extinct. The only time I see those is when I rally my corpmates to get a Mining Operation going. And those Mining ops aren't even very profitable anymore.

CCP, fix this ASAP. Drone-regions and bots are killing mining as it is. Just make the Rogue Drones give bounties too. Will it be an ISK-faucet? Yes. Will it bring back Mining as a profitable profession? Yes. Will it make suicide-gankers able to find more targets? Yes. Will it be more beneficial than the current situation? Yes. It will. Miners will be more valuable to corps and alliances, Suicide-Gankers will stop crying about how hard it is to find victims, and the prices will only rise for a short time, until people realize that their alliances need more Industrialists.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#47 - 2012-03-20 12:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
Not for nothing but a tank fit hulk with Resist link on the Orca has 27K EHP and Resist above 80 across the board. This means that for you to get alpha'ed will take something like 2 or 3 Nado's.

1 - Stop Active tanking hulks. Its ******** and holely unnessesary in high sec. Rats are only frigs FFS. just pop um and your buffer will still read 99%.

2 - Dscan. Whats that, 10 thrashers just came on scan, warp and they land next to a DC 2 fitted orca. O noes.

3 - Dont actually AFK

4 - Dont mine into cans, its ******** take the time to warp and dock.

5 - Don't complain that after the people that gank hulks tell you how to avoid it the best you can, if you're still ganked.

6 - Dont solo mine, ffs MMORPG key their being the M for Multi and the p for player.

7 - Need a pee? Dock.

8 - Have T1 Dones? Scrub train t2

9 - Still want to mine alone? Embrace the world of multi box. I did once meet a fella with Two orcas and 6 hulks. This would be extreme thou.

10 - Once you've fully trained your hulk pilot instead of half assing it to L2 will do(idiots). Train it for PI properly so you can eat out alittle more isk on the side. Also train for research agents and spend a couple days getting the L4 standing. Can be done in around 20hours of Transport missions in a Crane.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Sevena Black
The Black Redemption
#48 - 2012-03-20 13:37:31 UTC
I need to get this of my chest:

Ganking using Alpha means the following: Dealing enough damage to a target to overcome its buffer and blow it up in a single volley (alpha reffering to the 1st volley).

There is no defense against this. The only thing that makes a difference is the number of hostiles required to reach enough alpha. The more the better since it makes ganking more expensive.

Repping dont mean a thing. The only thing that matters are resists and your HP buffer.

For the record: I do believe its possible to mine and I also agree that working in groups helps. I think it makes it possible to get into lowsec where you can intercept people at the gates. In H-sec, anything thats more expensive than the destroyers required to apha it will get ganked. All I have to say about that is; welcome to EVE
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-03-20 13:51:11 UTC
to those who want droneland to disappear: droneland is already dying. xXDEATHXx is leaving this space. And drone regions won't be filled soon: we are leaving our sov structures onlined. New owners will have fun grinding it.
So enjoy alloys while you can.

BTW: just checked Jita for ships. I don't know what happened but Drake for 40 millions ISK???? Last time i was buying it i have paid like 27 millions for 1 ship. If this is not because of minerals then i don't know..... Roll

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-03-20 13:58:03 UTC
You are dying out because your gameplay style isn't adapting to changing times. Adapt or die.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-03-20 14:11:39 UTC
Back in my mining days I used mine in completed mission sites for some peace and quiet.

Mineral prices would have to go up a lot to get me back to mining though.

KB Link
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#52 - 2012-03-20 14:18:50 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

I agree about the Defences thing, but the other part ?..........2 year player here with 3 Bill ISK.


3 years player, 140B in wallet here. Does not mean I have not been a newbie or others will be newbies after me. Game needs constant replacement of those who quit.

3 years ago there were not super powered cheapo destroyers nor people exploited cloaky Orca for their -10 sec pilot ship to gank miners, then return to Orca AND circumvent CONCORD.


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

An Orca can be filled by 2 Macks in an hour easily, and that is 22 million at least, NOT 5 Mill.


1) You have to be rich enough to buy an Orca and to pay for 3 accounts.
2) 22M / 3 accounts = 7.3M per hour per account. Yay 2M more per hour for such investment!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Nadia Zandria
TechnoCorp
#53 - 2012-03-20 14:31:15 UTC
I wonder though whats the use of ganking them anyway? (Bot aside), you dont win anything, you loose standing, people leaving the game.

And no forcing people to do something else ingame is also making people leave as they dont want to be forced doing something else.

Also dont say its a form of PvP as a miner pilot cant defend himself after beeing alpha`d.

Ganking was fun in the beginning, but its getting out of hand.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-03-20 14:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
TravisWB wrote:
As a relatively long term indy alt toon I have noticed something many of you are probably unaware of.

Hulks and the noob mining barges as well are vanishing from the game.
Our little neut alt corp is active in a couple of empires and many regions and are familiar with many rich mining areas that all have something new in common.

NO MINERS

Systems that once had heavy competitive pressure to get the ore are now mostly devoid of any miners whatsoever.
And this is a much bigger problem than many of you must understand.
Some mining/indy/missioning corps are now full time incursion farmers But the run of the mill, small corp afk mining noobs in a Hulk or two are fewer and farther between than I have EVER seen in nearly three years of play.
And these people were not bots, Bots are only in null, mining ABC around the clock.
Veldspar bots? Ice Bots, are you freaking STUPID?
Most hisec carebear miners/indys are less than 2 year old noobs that don't buy or sell isk. They usually take 6 months of hard work to get that Hulk that then likely as not gets ganked and they quit the game.
Or maybe they autopilot an industrial hauling a weeks worth of gametime work to a hub and that gets ganked. Same result, they quit the game.
And given the seedy and sorry reputation this game now has, guess what? There aren't any noobs out there in a Navitas learning how to mine.
Most 'noobs' these days are actually suicide ganking alts that belong to some jaded nullsec failbot corp. This game is going to fail and fail rather quickly if something isn't done pretty quick.
Nullsec is a total freaking fail. Watch this and try to see why. http://youtu.be/7zzJsA8iecA
And now hisec is swarmed with not bitter vets, but rather disillusioned thugs that dreamed of glory, but now settle for mere thuggery.
Mark my words, this game is going to fail. And when it does it will be far faster than you will imagine.

This has been going on for several months and it is getting worse, not better, not the same as always, but Worse, much worse,

The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.


like many industries in real life it got automated.

years ago people worked on assembly lines building lots of stuff.

today robots do this task unless you work in Nike's factory in china.

in eve bots do all the mining/drone ratting

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Blatant Forum Alt
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-03-20 14:38:04 UTC
Lolmining.

Also, drone poo and reprocessed mission loot provides the vast majority of the economys minerals.

And if you get ganked while mining, thats just natural selection. Being prealigned to a station/safespot and hitting warp as soon as someone comes on grid will protect you, as the ganker does not have enough time to lock you and fire before youve warped.

Miners, u mad?
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#56 - 2012-03-20 14:49:14 UTC
I have mined quite a lot in the past. Made billions. Eventually I "grew out of it" because mining is and always will be the low-sp way of making isk (in high-sec anyway). It's too easy to justify making more than about 15M an hour.

I always chuckle when people think that you can "mine aligned." It's not practical, and the second you have to turn around to stay in range of the asteroids you're even more at risk. Passive align doesn't speed up your warp time, either. That being said there are ways to prevent being ganked, they're called "don't mine in populated systems." General rule of thumb, if there are more people than belts, don't mine there.

Botting and drone goo are the biggest threats to miners, not suicide gankers (they only kill the stupid)
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#57 - 2012-03-20 14:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg wrote:
A few words


1. Mining is the backbone of EVE regardless of what anyone thinks. Where do you think your ships come from. The drone poo comes from nullsec and mainly stays in nullsec. You may have some high end minerals coming to jita but once refined no one is transporting trit to Jita.

2. There is still mining happening just not as much in Caldari space. Which you look at killmails from hulkageddon They are always in Caldari space. Mining still happens in the other three empires.


3. Being smarter has nothing to do with it. If you are caught by a gank squad you are caught and there is nothing you can do about it. 10 thrashers are going to eat a hulk alive the same way that 10 gank tier 3 battle cruisers will eat a mission boat alive.


4. Normally mining is the first way that people try to make isk because its easy and being ganked for a retriever is nothing but its a fortune to a new player who has only just bought one. And changing belts to Grav sites will do nothing but make miners need extra training before they can mine. IE the osprey will become a redundant ship.


The real problem is that everyone wants to be a baddass and miners are the easiest targets to go for. They are seen as passive and week people because they are not baddass. But they are just playing the game they way that they want to. Its almost like "play my way or you suck.



1 Ore minerals are hardly as important these days as they used to be. Large portions of the modern ship-cooking recipes come from moongoo and WH. Whatever minerals are left, maybe half of it comes from dronepoo. The remaining slice miners contribute is not that big really.

2 Hulkageddon was how long ago exactly?

3 I can see the financial gain in exchanging 10 thrashers for one hulk. Ten T3 for a mission boat? Not so much.

4 The first way people try to make isk are the tutorial and epic arc missions. Really that's tens of millions of isk with more fun and deginately quicker then newbie-mining.

Also it's not 'their' way. It's the way of EVE. Either learn to stand up for yourself (or have others do it for you), or accept people will continue to take advantage of you if you're not smart enough.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Nadia Zandria
TechnoCorp
#58 - 2012-03-20 14:58:08 UTC
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:
Lolmining.

Also, drone poo and reprocessed mission loot provides the vast majority of the economys minerals.

And if you get ganked while mining, thats just natural selection. Being prealigned to a station/safespot and hitting warp as soon as someone comes on grid will protect you, as the ganker does not have enough time to lock you and fire before youve warped.

Miners, u mad?



Try to mine while moving.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#59 - 2012-03-20 15:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Mutnin wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Miners just need to smarten up, it really isnt hard. Corp mining ops anyone? Have a repping BS sit with you, make it cap stable and you dont even have to watch it. You dont even need expensive ships use T1 logi cruisers.

I think what people are complaining about is that it isnt safe to solo afk mine. This is true. If your not afk and you see a combat ship warp in close or approach you, then warp off. But if you are in groups then how hard would it be for 10 hulks to be solidly repped by two or three t1 logi cruisers or a couple of 8 hislot BSs?

Dont whine, adapt, make the people who prey on you sad, make them quit suicide ganking because YOU made them stop not because you cried until CCP changed the rules. I know which I would feel better about.

It is an MMO, if you work in teams you will survive, adapt, be stronger than your opposition. How sad would they be if your 10 Hulks were defended by a pair of cap stable perma armour repping Domi's with heavy shield repping drones prelaunched and running on everyone? Fit a DC 2 and a plate, make those hulks hard. Carry shield or armour repping drones and have them perma repping a buddy, now you are solidly spider tanked and your hulks are near invulnerable. What if you also had an insta locking Cane with you, their suicided ship now also results in a player involved lossmail, and we all know how we value our stats...

Quitting is for quitters, be smarter than your enemy.


You don't understand the mechanics that go into ganking a Mining barge. IMO Ganking of Tengus, Haulers is fine as in both cases there are very easy ways to defend your self. Tengus can just wait out their undock timers and redock if they see 2 Tornados sitting on a station. Even T1 haulers can use the MWD cloak trick to avoid high sec ganks and insta dock/warp bookmarks at stations.

Mining Barges on the other hand really are defenseless little lambs waiting for the big bad wolf to strike.

There is no amount of repping that will stop a Alpha from a Tornado as example from killing any mining barge. There is no safety net for miners in a group as they then just become a bigger target for a few smart bombing BS.

The simple fact is Mining barges are the perfect prey for a suicide ganker as there really is no defense aside from just staying docked and I'm saying this as someone whom has ganked several barges with only a handful of fails. (fails have only happened due to bad luck on our part but by nothing the miner did)

While I don't think CCP should nerf ganking as gankers will just find another way, they should however give real miners better ability to avoid being ganked. Perhaps add a lot more Grav sites in high sec or add something along the lines of what I mentioned above with the ability to build ships using T3's & sub system that make for much harder targets to gank.

In all honestly it should be more work to Gank a Miner than using 3 noob alts in 2 mil ISK destroyers, yet ganking it's self should not be nefed but rather countered with better options for miners. It should be a cat & mouse game and not a nerf bat..


Hi. You are very silly with that rant. All ships can be alpha'd. You can stop a tornado from aplhaing a hulk. You cant stop ship overkill from ganking you no matter what ship you are in.

I have successfully stopped ganks on myself in a mackinaw with proper tanks multiple times. I have never failed at a gank, and I have never found a miner with a proper tank.

Due to all the the gank whine threads I even asked people to be put on the safe list yesterday prior to ganking. Everyone who X'd up was marked as blue. I still found 2 marks.

cry moar, my cookies need dipped.

Ninja edit;

Align all you want pro gankers scramble.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-03-20 15:00:58 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor
[b wrote:

You have NEVER mined a unit of ORE ever.[/b]



Well, while I am ceo of a pvp corp its true, I also have two perfect mining alts, whilst we dont mine ore, we do do Ice ops, we have scouts in the two neighbouring systems, we have an orca and we have guards on site, mostly for rats but also in case someone slips a frigate in and on top of us when we are busy. We also use static bubbles on the directionals of the gates for an added layer of security. We also have combat or repping drone in or mackinaws. We usually have 10 to 15 people online in that op, around 3/4 of those are in mining barges of one sort or another.

We do the ops so that we can fuel our large number of pos's as cheaply as possible. The pilots,who are all PVPers or alts of PVPers who would much rather be doing something else, use their time without monetary compensation for this, the reward is that they are in a good corp, flying with good people, the reward is making their corp even better. They will X up every time they are asked, usually twice a month or so. If my pvpers can do it, surely an actual mining or indy corp can manage something similar?

If you are not prepared to fly as a team, and put some effort in to it, you do not deserve to be rewarded.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.