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Hybrids still need more love? [PvE]
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Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#1 - 2012-03-19 16:55:11 UTC
I don't mean for this to be a rant, so please forgive me in advance. I've got roughly 8.3 million points in gunnery. Most of the basic skills are at V, and every single large hybrid skill is maxed out besides the 5th level of Large Hybrid Specialization (lol 34 days for 2%).

On top of that, i've got the 3% surgical strike implant as well as the 3% large hybrid implant. For those familiar with the 425mm Railgun II damage multipliers, mine is about 9.2x

Here is my issue: The lack of versatility.

I recently moved from Fountain space to Providence (Serpentis rats to sansha)

Now everything is fine and dandy on serpentis rats. Their two lowest are kinetic and thermal, yipee. But it is specific to that area only.

I move to Providence, i'm doing about half the dps i usually do. Hybrids either need to be given more types of "antimatter" (by that i mean max damage different damage types), or simply buffed to compensate for the lack of versatility. I always find it funny when my friend comes in a drake or tengu with 3 mil missile skills and puts out almost double what i am.

So TL;DR Recently moved to Providence (Sansha) where gallente damage sucks, probably forced to train amarr and energy weapons for the next 3 months.

My rants complete. If you have anything objective or constructive to say, it would be appreciated.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#2 - 2012-03-19 17:01:30 UTC
Lasers have the reverse problem, and are even more nerfed when a laser user moves to Angel space.

With hybrids, I think just having ammunition biased more heavily to kinetic or thermal than currently exists would make them almost as versatile as projectiles for actual damage delivered on target.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#3 - 2012-03-19 17:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Perihelion Olenard
#4 - 2012-03-19 17:23:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder

Your videos no longer exist on the link you provided.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2012-03-19 17:23:40 UTC
Hybrids are in a very good place as of now .. what remains are some feather-light touches to the hulls using them.

Read that as: Buff hybrids any more and you end up with a repeat of the projectile over-buff and Goddess knows we don't need another FoTY inducing balance change.
Perihelion Olenard
#6 - 2012-03-19 17:27:51 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Hybrids are in a very good place as of now .. what remains are some feather-light touches to the hulls using them.

Read that as: Buff hybrids any more and you end up with a repeat of the projectile over-buff and Goddess knows we don't need another FoTY inducing balance change.


IMO projectiles were fine before the buff as I used them on my old character that I sold. I did well with projectiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-03-19 17:41:01 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder

Your videos no longer exist on the link you provided.


Yeah I know. I blogged about it: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/pvp-videos-on-vimeo/

I'll be putting them up somewhere else Soon(tm).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#8 - 2012-03-19 18:37:15 UTC
from what i heard tallest was working on before he went on vacation was balancing tech I ammo... much like they did for projectiles...

so i would expect once he comes back from paternatiy leave to get right back on the balance horse...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#9 - 2012-03-19 20:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Liang Nuren wrote:
350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder



Oh i don't doubt it, but doesn't that shed light on a bigger problem? Why is it missiles can just go and own wherever they go? Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?


And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?

Make ammo for each damage type in the "antimatter" area and problem solved.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-19 20:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Azemar wrote:
Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?


-Being able to dumpster frigs in-bound easily thus a lot less reliance on drones.
-Not having to worry about rigging for your turrets to hit anything smaller than a battleship for full damage.
-Faster/Instant reloading times.
-Wrecking shots.
-Instant damage application, aka no volley counting.
-Superior damage compared to cruise missiles, Superior everything but eft dps compared to torps. Superior damage compared to heavy missiles.

There's a reason the tengu stands alone as the last remaining elite-pve missile ship and that's because it combines hml projection on a platform with amazing resists, not a terribly large sig, with great speed, and flexibility to operate in dangerous space.

Outside of that perfect storm of attributes most missile ships are currently a waste of time compared to their turret counterparts, yes even the hybrid turrets. Check some of the recent threads discussing the golem/cnr for more details.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-03-19 20:37:15 UTC
Ive been testing them myself.

EM weak rats are the only rats you will have issues with with hybrids. Sansha, Blood, Amarr npcs. But everything else including Angels you will have little issues with. But that its just a small section of rats that Hybrids suck against now Im ok with that.

I honestly think Lasers are generally the most limited weapons system now for PVE.


If you have basic drone skills, 350 rail domi as has already been suggested with heavy's and sentry's will give you selectable damage to kill EM weak rats.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#12 - 2012-03-19 20:46:54 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Oh i don't doubt it, but doesn't that shed light on a bigger problem? Why is it missiles can just go and own wherever they go? Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?

No sir. There is no problem. Since I trained my gunnery skills up to decent IV level I stopped feeling intimidated by missile using friends. And it was waaaay before Crucible.

So while I can't really comment on missiles, I suck too much there to make honest comparison, I can tell you why hybrids are okay. Large guns easily project at least 700 dps at 36 km with 30 falloff. Which is more than enough for most missions. Where it's not enough, with scripted tracking computers you can make it up to 50, still dealing same damage, or with spikes you hit as far as you can possibly lock for the price of having about 60% of that dps. Damage being kin/therm only? What a shame! Have you looked up rats database? Most regular mission folks have resists 50% where hard, 40% where soft. Go figure.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2012-03-19 21:23:51 UTC
Azemar wrote:

And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?


Perhaps it might because its not that simple of a balance change. Damage type selection is the exception rather than the rule, and I'd call that a good thing.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#14 - 2012-03-19 21:38:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Azemar wrote:

And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?


Perhaps it might because its not that simple of a balance change. Damage type selection is the exception rather than the rule, and I'd call that a good thing.

-Liang



Interesting. Could you explain further?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2012-03-19 21:45:59 UTC
I thought it was fairly self explanatory: damage type selection isn't a guarantee or a right. It's a bonus for using a particular weapons system (missiles for full damage type selection, projectiles for limited). If you feel you want it, train those weapons systems and take the bad with the good.

Also: variety in weapons systems is a good thing.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#16 - 2012-03-19 22:06:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I thought it was fairly self explanatory: damage type selection isn't a guarantee or a right. It's a bonus for using a particular weapons system (missiles for full damage type selection, projectiles for limited). If you feel you want it, train those weapons systems and take the bad with the good.

Also: variety in weapons systems is a good thing.

-Liang



Exactly! That brings me back to my original point about turrets vs missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2012-03-19 22:09:53 UTC
It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#18 - 2012-03-19 22:12:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.

-Liang



Could you explain why you take that stance? Missiles have the advantage of being any type they wish. It would appear to be a significant advantage over turrets. I understand that turrets have the ability to do things like one shot frigs, no travel time, etc but it seems the choice of damage type would vastly outweigh those factors.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-03-19 22:14:05 UTC
It doesn't.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-03-19 22:35:23 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.

-Liang



Could you explain why you take that stance? Missiles have the advantage of being any type they wish. It would appear to be a significant advantage over turrets. I understand that turrets have the ability to do things like one shot frigs, no travel time, etc but it seems the choice of damage type would vastly outweigh those factors.



Missiles have other balance factors to them. Such as Exp velocity and Radius. And flight time etc.

You want to take something that works in rock, paper, scissors fashion and make it all Rock and everything weak to rock.

No thanks. Variety is the spice of life.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
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